[BCowan]

Assuming that both courses are in your area and you have played each a couple times, would you rather play the firm Doak 5 or the soft Doak 8 if you had few times in which you could get out for a round

[MCirba]

Ben,

Terrific question.

If the 5 is designed to facilitate firm conditions, absolutely.

[Tommy Williamsen]

An 8 probably has more going for it than conditions. I'd go for the 8 every time.

[Joe_Tucholski]

Ben,

Terrific question.

If the 5 is designed to facilitate firm conditions, absolutely.

Are there 5's that are designed to facilitate firm conditions?


I'll take the 8, even with the drawback of being wet it "will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

[Greg Gilson]

I'll take this every time:

One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

[Doug Bolls]

I tend to hit a low flighted ball - I like a course that runs - I'll take the firm and fast every time.

[Sean_A]

Not all 5s or 8s are equal.  Some 5s impress mightily and some 8s do little for me.  Without knowing the specific courses I would guess that my choice would be the 5 because it is likely to be far cheaper. 


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

A reminder of the description of a Doak 5 -


"5. Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don’t spend another day away from home to see it, unless your home is in Alaska."

Tongue in cheek?

Lots of thoroughly nice (and as Sean alludes to inexpensive) 5's out there. And 4's, 3's etc as well.

Atb

[JESII]

In the question, Ben states that you've already played them both a couple of times.


It's all about the golf for me...I think I'd choose a 3 over the 8 if it were truly firm.

[archie_struthers]

 


No doubt the firm course

[MCirba]

Put another way with even higher Doak Scale numbers, I'd rather play a screaming fast Wild Horse over a wet, soppy Sand HIlls any day.

I'm not saying that Sand Hills is over-watered and it's not, but if it were...

Where's the fun when the ball won't roll??

[Jim Franklin]

Put another way with even higher Doak Scale numbers, I'd rather play a screaming fast Wild Horse over a wet, soppy Sand HIlls any day.

I'm not saying that Sand Hills is over-watered and it's not, but if it were...

Where's the fun when the ball won't roll??

Speaking of the Sand Hills region, I played Prairie Club this past summer along with Sand Hills, Dismal River, and Wild Horse, and every course was firm and fast EXCEPT Prairie Club. It was wet. Drives bounced backwards. I was dumbfounded. The layout was pretty good, but I was disappointed. Give me the firm course every time.

[Josh Tarble]

I'd much rather have a soft 8 than a firm 5

[JMEvensky]

It's all about the golf for me...I think I'd choose a 3 over the 8 if it were truly firm.

This all day for me.

[Jason Thurman]

I'd much rather have a soft 8 than a firm 5

My answer would depend on a lot of factors. What condition were the courses in when I played them previously? Who would my playing partners be? Are they public, or did I receive an invitation from a friend to play as his guest? And just what do we mean by "soft" and "firm"? Are we talking mudballs on the soft course after a few days of heavy rain, or would the course just benefit from using a little less water in their regular maint regimen so that drives roll 20 yards instead of 10? And finally, are we talking about a literal Doak 5 and Doak 8? Or are we talking about a course that I personally would rate as a 5 against a course that I rate as an 8?


If balls aren't plugging, I very rarely complain too much about conditioning. Firm, fast conditions make the round more fun, but if we're talking about my personal 1-10 scale, then there's really no comparison. There's a pretty big gap for me between a place like Moraine (8-ish) and Maketewah (5-ish). I'm playing Moraine every time as long as there's enough dry land for a legal casual water drop on the valley holes.


But if we're talking about the literal Doak Scale, and if we really stack the deck against the 8, I can certainly imagine skipping a round at a sopping wet Whistling Straits to play at a firm and fast Valhalla, to pick one example.

[Brian Finn]

Assuming soft doesn't mean totally saturated, I would go for the 8 almost every time.  There simply aren't that many courses "worth a special trip to see."  I've played nearly 500 different courses - only 20 of these are 8s (plus a handful of 9+), while over 80 are 5s.  I've lived in 4 very different parts of the country (for a few years each) over the last twenty years or so, and there were several accessible 5s within 30 minutes of every one of those locations.  So, I can play a 5 pretty much any time I want.  For most of us, the chance to see an 8 comes fairly seldom, so I would jump on the opportunity.

[Andrew Buck]

Hmm, a soft Shoreacres or a firm Westmoorland.  Lift, clean and place sounds good. 

[Pete Lavallee]

Can anyone name an 8 that is consistently maintained soft?

[BCowan]

Can anyone name an 8 that is consistently maintained soft?

Franklin Hills

[PCCraig]

I would rather play the 8, soft.

[PCCraig]

Can anyone name an 8 that is consistently maintained soft?

White Bear Yacht Club is (I think) listed as an 8 (or at least a 7?) that is almost always soft due to the general location and the land it's built on.

[Peter Pallotta]

I don't demand firm and fast (especially the fast part) nor do I tend to add up or demand a certain number of exceptional golf holes, but this thread has reminded me that the experience of golf is certainly lessened (for me) when the ground is soft and/or wet. I think that just as my only connection to the golf club is my grip/hands, so too the only connection to the golf course are my feet -- and so the experience of playing a round of golf is determined/informed by literally every step I take.  I'd play the 5 because I wouldn't be able to block out or ignore the sensations underfoot.

[Thomas Dai]

Good point Peter. Not fond of damp, wet ground myself, even playing with dew on the ground is something of a pain.


Atb

[Tim Gallant]

I have gone back and forth on this. Having played both before, I think I would have a good idea which course I preferred to play, and would choose accordingly, even if one was quite saturated. For example, I would choose a Loch Lomond (a Doak 7 I believe) over a Crail, even though the latter is likely to play much firmer and faster. However, I can see some instances where I would chose a firm and fast option over a saturated one mainly because I personally like the course better.


That said, if I had never seen either course before, it would be tough to pass up an 8. Those opportunities don't come around too often.

[David Davis]

I live for soft, juicy and lush. Just saying...


If I hadn't seen either course as Tim suggests then I'd be there for certain. There are only a handful of 8's in the entire world. Here in this country that would mean the difference between playing De Pan which for me is now an 8 or 9 and playing something like Rosendaalsche and 9 times out of 10 I'd go for De Pan even though for some strange reason it was playing soft and lush which is just not the case these days.

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