[Randy Thompson]

I just opened three new holes a month ago in Chile. Two of the redo`s were par three`s and I focused on making something memorable and hopefully a ittle different. Many of you don`t like big greens that within these big greens are smaller seperate greens. I think it is a legitmate way to make the same hole play easy for day to day play but still have some pin positions with teeth for special ocassions. I am getting a ton of backlash from about half the membership about excessive movement and the other half loves them. Part of the problem is they have only four months and don`t recieve yet due to lack of thatch. I was expecting controversy and I think some controversy is always good but today I got a comment that stings a little. I am having problems digesting the comment and has caused some self doubt and has made me ask myself, have I gone to far? I was asked if I was trying to mix putt putt golf with real golf because if that were my intentions, I did it perfectly! Ouch! What says the treehouse.
I will post the other two another day, I have to go to a cocktail party now at the club and get some more verbal abuse!

[Thomas Dai]

The Robert Trent Jones 4th at Balturol story comes to mind.


A pro I know changed the slope of one green. The Lady Capt was up in arms about how difficult it now was. The Pro gave her and her chums a chipping and putting lesson on the green and the disharmony went away. Best friends after that. Funny old world sometimes.


Atb

[Tim Gallant]

Randy,


I am paraphrasing, and don't have the book to hand, but CB basically said that any hole (or feature) that causes animated debate with proponents for and against is usually a good sign that you got it right. And on reading your description (before seeing the photos), I was reminded of the 6th green at National. What would these naysayers say about that majestic green?


For what it's worth, I don't think the greens look over undulated, but tough to get a sense from the photos.

[Adrian_Stiff]

You will never please everyone.


We lost a member because the greens were not flat enough.


My take is we are in the entertainment business and we have to give people something to enjoy.


Only a tiny percentage of golfers seem to accept 3 putting many see a 3 putt 'as not their fault'. So I think a course with lots of difficult highly contoured greens can be a minus to lots. The other negative is highly contoured greens add a lot of time to a round of golf.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Randy,

I suspect you know the answer, and Adrian nailed it for most courses.

Mac's Stiltwell Park Green comes to mind.

Basically, most golfers rant against a green that is contoured so steeply they can't aim a put that ends near the hole.  Or as Colt puts it, "so that a putt runs like a swine possessed by the devil."

And, the supers would say it has too much contour if they couldn't have 6-21 pins (depending on how busy they are). Or if the tiers are so steep they scalp the top and/or bottoms....

So, yes.

[Adam Warren]

Persimmon Ridge in Louisville (Art Hills) is an example of probably too much undulation.  There are 2 levels to almost every green out there.  I think you can have a fair amount of them to create the effect you are speaking of, but they have to placed appropriately.  Shorter approach shots to make it possible for the everyday player to play to the "smaller green."  Many of PR's long, tight holes also have heavily undulated greens.  It will make you a better player, but can also be too much on many occasions.

[Philippe Binette]

Had some big debates about this... not necessarily on tiered greens but on multi-contoured greens...


With too many different and smaller contours (which is often praised on GCA.com) comes a point where the strategic design intent becomes useless...


The average player is either, not able to "read" the shot to play, or execute the shot to play, or execute the drive that would lead him to play the "little_runner_coming_from_the_left_inside_using_the_small_swale_to_get_the_proper_kick" approach...
and the good player will not play it because it's easier for him to play a full 9-iron from 145yards.


That's what I loved about certain links course where most of the greens have a clear dominant contour feature (example: a tilt from right to left, or a false front) that most players can understand and play for, and here and there a little feature (a bump or a spine protecting a back pin) that add some interest for the better player.


But if a green has a false front, a swale, 2 internal bumps, 2 spine coming from the sides and a tier, at some point, players would aim:
A) for the flag because why aim at a 10feet circle elsewhere
B) aim for the middle of the green

[Mike Nuzzo]

I'd rather answer your questions specific to this green.
How difficult is it to run the ball onto this green. It looks difficult.
What club are they hitting into this green?
How many square feet is the green?
How deep is the green?
How out of character is it with the others?
Cheers

[Jeff_Brauer]

With too many different and smaller contours (which is often praised on GCA.com) comes a point where the strategic design intent becomes useless...


........That's what I loved about certain links course where most of the greens have a clear dominant contour feature (example: a tilt from right to left, or a false front) that most players can understand and play for, and here and there a little feature (a bump or a spine protecting a back pin) that add some interest for the better player.


But if a green has a false front, a swale, 2 internal bumps, 2 spine coming from the sides and a tier, at some point, players would aim:
A) for the flag because why aim at a 10feet circle elsewhere
B) aim for the middle of the green

Also a good analysis.  I have always said a green can be good at doing one thing, maybe two if a pretty big green.  If it rewards a hook via its angle, it can't reward a fade, etc.  You can't need to be both above and below a hole, etc.

Better to let a green be "the one with the XX feature (cross slope, bumps, false front, etc.) than the green that tries to do a lot of things but doesn't do any of them really well.  Again, it IS possible, if you build a really big green to do more, so size relates to contours.

I always saw this as a problem for a green committee chair redesigning one green on a course, or sometimes, one of my newer staff members getting to design their first green.  In both cases, they simply try to get too many ideas into one green.....hey maybe with reduced design work these days, maybe even senior architects and principals are getting into this habit.

[Jason Topp]

I do think it is possible to over undulate greens but have never come up with a satisfactory definition.  Basically, I prefer greens that make "sense" in some fashion.  If I perceive of a green as having random moguls I find them frustrating.  By contrast, a green where one side of the hole is dead but the other side is fine provides a lot of interest.

Highly contoured greens take a while to learn.  I would say check back with the members in a year or two.  They may grow to love them.

[MClutterbuck]

Where is this Randy?

[Kalen Braley]

I dare someone to build this on a full 18 hole non-putting course, 

[Kalen Braley]

I don't think anyone would even try Pasa 16 either....

[Ken Fry]

I was in an argument recently with someone about this very topic, specifically concerning the 4th hole of Lost Dunes in Michigan.  They felt the green unfair because the pin was located on the back tier the day they played.  He 3 putted.  Coincidence?

My question to him was:  "Why is it so wrong to force you to be creative with your putter?"
His answer:  "Because if I hit the green I should at least have a putt at the hole."

Some people will enjoy the challenge.  Others will lament the "fairness."  You can't get them all.

Ken

[Jon Wiggett]

I dare someone to build this on a full 18 hole non-putting course, 

Kalen,


having played Sitwell on several occasions I can confirm that the slope into which this green is set is steep. It is impressive that the good Doctor was able to fashion a green into it at all. What is now there is awful in every sense but has stood the test of time better than the original.


Randy,


I think you will find such green will encourage much comments and not all will be positive. However, many of the negative people end up being converted to become fans of such greens so I would just stick to your guns and back up your work. The worst thing you can do is start softening it as that would please no one. I do think that if you have a well contoured green then it should be easy to hit and hold generally.


Jon

[Charlie_Bell]

Too much contour is very rare indeed.  The problem is when green speeds are too fast for the designer's intent, which I doubt is the case at Randy's course.


I live at Hotchkiss, a Raynor course with some serious green contours on 4 of the 9 greens.  By "serious" I mean that there are reasonable pin locations where a respectable approach shot leaves an extremely challenging 2-putt.

[Tom_Doak]

By coincidence I just landed at Barnbougle Dunes last night and will shortly be out to play on several highly undulating greens, including the par-3 13th which is the closest thing I've built (or seen) to the Sitwell Park green.  Many people think it's crazy, but at the same time, I've never heard people laugh and shout and enjoy a green I've built more than that one.  It's not often you get guys oohing and aahing watching their ball move around on the green from 170 yards away.


That particular green does not seem to have negatively affected the course's ranking or business success.  Of course, it's a beautiful site by the ocean, so the place has a lot of other attractions, but I think the wild spirit of the course really adds to its appeal.

[Carl Rogers]

Does this thread apply to Sweeten's Cove?

[Randy Thompson]

Randy,


I am paraphrasing, and don't have the book to hand, but CB basically said that any hole (or feature) that causes animated debate with proponents for and against is usually a good sign that you got it right. And on reading your description (before seeing the photos), I was reminded of the 6th green at National. What would these naysayers say about that majestic green?


For what it's worth, I don't think the greens look over undulated, but tough to get a sense from the photos.

Tim,
I looked at the flyover six was great and the doublé green really moves! This is part of the problem, very few memebers have traveled and played really good golf courses. Most of the courses here are classic courses with a botanical garden nice walk experience and flatish greens.

[Randy Thompson]

Jeff,
I had a discussion yesterday with a member that said the next green I will post was anti-golf because there were putts that were imposible to leave in the leather from one part of the green to another. I answered thats not a fair statement because I have tried with three balls from everywhere and left at least one in the leather. Finially we got to his real beef or disatifaction which was firing at the pin on the left side and not holding.  Being as new as they are it really hard to hold from anywhere and that not going to change overnight. This is a twenty seven hole resort and we changed from poa to bent on this nine and the other eighteen are still soft thatchy poa. There going to have learn how to play these and many are not going to like having to make adjustments. They are not USGA either, they are native fine sand and I expect them to be a little firmer. The super was very concerned about scalping but basically nothing, they are perfect. Some of the photos were with sand on the benches to avoid the scalping and I thought with the sand it was easier to see the contours. No problems with pin positions!

Philipee,
I agree with everything your saying, especilially with the conclusions of firing at the pin or the middle of the green. I have been watching them play and that what is happening. I hope they learn from their mistakes and learn golf is meant to be more then just about executing the correct swing and throwing darts at the pin.

To All,
When I decided what I wanted to do I expected the current 50/50 split or love - hate controversy. I also felt confident with six months another 30% will come around as they start to learn them and as a results have memories of the thrill of accomplishment or I came, I saw and I conqured! Not so sure about the 30% anymore but for now everybody understands no softening until I can get some thatch establsihed. The only decisión that has been made to date is that the last month of the summer season which is Feb, we will make a survey. In the meantime, I plan on making a presentation to the board trying to further educate and most likely following that meeting I will communicate in some form with the membership trying to educate the ones that can be educated.

[Randy Thompson]

I'd rather answer your questions specific to this green.
How difficult is it to run the ball onto this green. It looks difficult.
What club are they hitting into this green?
How many square feet is the green?
How deep is the green?
How out of character is it with the others?
Cheers

The fairway is at 7/16 and I don`t think it is neither difficult or easy to run it up. Maybe it woud be better to cut with a triplex and take it down to 3/8, something to consider. I see a lot of average golfers that are aiming and hitting into the slope of the green and kicking up onto the green. You can usually tell who is trying to do that and who just got lucky.
Green is around 6,000 sq ft. Not sure how deep. The hole can be set up from one hundred yards to 200 depending pin position and tee location. The old hole was 230 to a 3,000 sq ft Green and a ugly flat trap. This is hole seven, hole five was the other par three and played 230 also so I told the board I wanted to lower this to a máximum of 170 and they were worried the loss of distance would make the hole to easy and I assured them it wouldn`t be and I would design a green for a six iron and on down and it will be a good hole but if you play it longer then that it will be a bad hole. I wanted to plow under the back tee but we left it but only for Pro`s. We have a lot of tees like that for golfer that still like goofy golf. We are about to start making a tee for the president of the club with a 240 carry over the wáter, won`t be used even for the local pro`s.
In relation to carácter of the other greens, there were 15 holes done 20 years ago with Kelly Moran and my company and the other 12 done at different times. As a result, pretty much a mix salad. The fifteen we did, have a lot of good interesting movement but gradual not so sharp and never more then two platforms but a few pronounced benches. I just couldn`t bring myself to make matching a carácter a high priority when I felt I am capable of producing something better! But, there was a lot of sleep lost trying to reach that decisión.

[Randy Thompson]

Where is this Randy?

Marbella-Coast of Chile, two hours from Santiago! My new home since I started this project in March and I am also overseeing the maintenance operation on a part time basis and we are also 3 years into a five year plan of improvements.

[Randy Thompson]

Jeff you wrote;
I always saw this as a problem for a green committee chair redesigning one green on a course, or sometimes, one of my newer staff members getting to design their first green.  In both cases, they simply try to get too many ideas into one green.....hey maybe with reduced design work these days, maybe even senior architects and principals are getting into this habit.
I think when I finish posting the other two holes you will definetly get that I am possibly or surely guilty of this. Seven years since my last regulation eighteen hole design. Have so many things going through my head looking for reléase and add in the fact that we are no spring chickens, leads to a now or never attitude and I may have went to the extreme in general but not in the over undulating category imo.

[Mike_Young]

yes.

[noonan]

For the average golfer to find a course playable - I would think 2 greens with severely tiered greens would be the max. It is difficult to putt proficiently up 18 inch internal hills.

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