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Sean_A

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Re: Can you over undulate greens? Many think so!
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2016, 05:31:07 AM »
For me its usually not a case over-undulation, its more about green speed.  Archies do need to be careful not to push the envelope and instead pad in a safety buffer to allow for green speeds. Even saying that, I believe a few wild greens is about the limit for most courses.  Nothing wrong with intrigue and interest for each green, but it does get old playing funky green after funky green.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you over undulate greens? Many think so!
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2016, 10:02:52 AM »
Where is this Randy?
Marbella-Coast of Chile, two hours from Santiago! My new home since I started this project in March and I am also overseeing the maintenance operation on a part time basis and we are also 3 years into a five year plan of improvements.
]


Hope to visit some day! Take care.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you over undulate greens? Many think so!
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2016, 11:08:14 AM »
Jeff you wrote;
I always saw this as a problem for a green committee chair redesigning one green on a course, or sometimes, one of my newer staff members getting to design their first green.  In both cases, they simply try to get too many ideas into one green.....hey maybe with reduced design work these days, maybe even senior architects and principals are getting into this habit.
I think when I finish posting the other two holes you will definetly get that I am possibly or surely guilty of this. Seven years since my last regulation eighteen hole design. Have so many things going through my head looking for reléase and add in the fact that we are no spring chickens, leads to a now or never attitude and I may have went to the extreme in general but not in the over undulating category imo.

Randy, me too, sometimes.  I recognize its a human nature problem, a la Plato, who said golf architects need to know thy selves. LOL

Jerry,

Your comment reminds me that I asked all those tour pros I worked with how many distinct double tier greens they liked to see on a course.  Two was pretty close, with most preferring 2-3, with a max of 4.  One even opined that every two tier green should be different from the others, so one proposed

one front to back (I doubt I would use the high front, low back tier arrangement)
one side to side, a la Pebble Beach 17,
one angled left 30- 45 degrees,
one angled right, 30-45 degrees

If you really wanted you could have the high back two tier green on both a long axis green, and another on an across the line of play axis green, which in my mind would be different enough.

Most pros aren't in favor of three and four tier greens, although they recognize sometimes the ground requires that.

Have told the story of hearing Jack Nicklaus say he likes long, two tier greens on long downwind par 4 holes, so he could chase a lower spin shot up the slope to the back pin.  While others disagree, I often try to find such a hole to use one of those.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you over undulate greens? Many think so!
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2016, 12:46:28 PM »
We lost a member because the greens were not flat enough.


As Jim Morrison sang "People are strange...." And golfers certainly are.


Sometimes the greens are not flat enough, sometimes the beer is too flat, sometimes the bellies aren't flat. Some golf club members probably still reckon the earth is flat!


Atb

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you over undulate greens? Many think so!
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2016, 01:31:34 PM »
Where is this Randy?
Marbella-Coast of Chile, two hours from Santiago! My new home since I started this project in March and I am also overseeing the maintenance operation on a part time basis and we are also 3 years into a five year plan of improvements.
]


Hope to visit some day! Take care.
Marcos,
Would  love to have you visit for a couple of days and make a mini tour on the coast. Mi casa es tu casa!
Randy

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you over undulate greens? Many think so!
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2016, 02:20:07 PM »

one front to back (I doubt I would use the high front, low back tier arrangement)

Jeff - we have one of these at my course and it is one of the best greens in the course.

Once a player understands the hole, the pin position has a big impact on the choice of club off the tee of the short par 4.  Players tend to lay up if the pin is in front because the pitch from the bailout area to the right to the front tier is so difficult.  They are more likely to hit driver near the green to get to the back lower tier. 

Even for those of us that don't need to worry about driving it near the green, the tier requires some interesting decisions on the approach - try to knock it close and risk falling to the wrong tier, fly it to the back or run it back there.  The odds are different each day.

I think the key to making it work is that the slope between tiers is not super severe.  It is not pinnable but a putt down it is doable.   

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you over undulate greens? Many think so!
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2016, 05:55:41 PM »



Reading the posts in this thread, I would second Philipe in distinguishing between an ondulated green and a tiered green. I would argue a tiered green is much easier to play, especially for a regular member, than an ondulated green.


The tiered green is mostly about speed and one break. The severely ondulated green is very difficult and frustrating most players, as it has multiple breaks and normally pin positions on a significant slope.


I grew up playing a course with a severe 2 tiered green on the first hole. I never questioned it, it was a nice test of your nerves and I was always happy to get out of there with 2 putts. (As an aside, I believe it was one of Tom Doak´s favorite greens in South America). So Randy, I dont think that the tiering I can see is excessive, what I cant see in the pics is how much ondulation there is apart from the tiering. That could be excessive.


 

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you over undulate greens? Many think so!
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2016, 10:50:42 AM »
Pete Dye did it numerous time, ditto Jack Nicklaus
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Rob Collins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you over undulate greens? Many think so!
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2016, 07:59:31 PM »
I think we all know who said this:
"It is only natural that players who have been spoon fed on insipid, flat uninteresting golf should view with a considerable amount of suspicion anything which is undoubtedly out of the ordinary."


Rob Collins

www.kingcollinsgolf.com
@kingcollinsgolf on Twitter
@kingcollinsgolf on Instagram

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you over undulate greens? Many think so! New
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2016, 09:47:27 AM »
I think we all know who said this:
"It is only natural that players who have been spoon fed on insipid, flat uninteresting golf should view with a considerable amount of suspicion anything which is undoubtedly out of the ordinary."
Rob,
I don`t know but if I had to guess, the good doctor! Funny no one has mentioned that Maybe he went to far on contours. Seeing some of his work at the Jockey Club made me open my eyes to the fact that we  have become conservtive or better phrasing would be, designing to please the masses.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 11:38:58 AM by Randy Thompson »

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