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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #125 on: October 03, 2003, 10:06:01 AM »
Tom MacWood:

I'm also at a loss to explain JakaB's method of defending Fazio. It involves taking broad swipes at people in our discussion group rather than simply writing about examples of Fazio's work that he really enjoys.

Golf architecture, when done well, can be a source of pleasure, fun, joy, etc. If an architect has built something really cool, I'd prefer to hear about it and what, in particular, makes the course worth going out of one's way to see.

As I've said before, supporters of Fazio and Rees Jones often seem to lack confidence in their architectural views. They attack other people here rather than explain in detail what they find appealing about Fazio or Jones work. I can't understand that. When I wrote some good things about Sand Ridge, nobody chopped my head off. No, they simply expressed architectural criticism. Nothing wrong with that. GCA is meant to be a place where one can find both positive and negative comments.

Forrest Richardson:

It would be great to have "complete information" about a course before we engaged in discussion here. But, how is that possible? Hell, we are sometimes lucky just to have several people who have actually seen and/or played a course! Insisting on inside knowledge of a project is simply unrealistic. There will be times when such information is forthcoming, but far more often than not it won't be. Simple fact.

I continue to believe there are essentially two ways to discuss a golf course: final product and project managment. "Final product" discussions involve observations about a golf course - hopefully by people who have seen and/or played the course, but sometimes involving people who rely on pictures, the written word or even television. I think of this as the consumer point of view? Do I like the course or not? And why?

The "project management" view is something people like Pat Mucci have called for on numerous occasions. It involves countless details that can shed important light on a project, but necessarily require "inside knowledge", e.g., who actually shaped a green or bunker, who determined the routing plan, what restrictions did the project team face, etc.

Discussion at GCA would be enhanced by greater input from people who can provide a "project management" perspective. This will take more golf industry professionals to post rather than just lurk. But, don't expect the "final product" or consumer perspective to go away. We need that as well.



Tim Weiman

HamiltonBHearst

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #126 on: October 03, 2003, 10:39:56 AM »


More than the other professional sports leagues the NFL is worried about perception.  Rush made a few statements that are now being twisted in an unfair manner.

1.  he thinks Mcnabb is not as good as most think and he is overated by the media.  this has nothing to do with the fact that Mcnabb is playing, he is the best they have.  As far as the players, the NFL is a meritocracy.

2.  Mcnabb overated by the media because of race?  Is he allowed this opinion?  Isn't the league itself practing the social engineering Rush speaks of by "requiring" teams give sham intrviews to black candidates.  The NFL could do a lot to be progresive in the league office but they take a pass.  How come in a majority minority league there are only 2 referees that are minority?  What percent of the people working at there league office are minority?

Rush took a shot at the media, so what.  His colleagues on the show had nothing to say untill they were told later they should be offended.

How does Rush's comment (about the media) compare with the comments of Dusty Baker who spoke of race?

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #127 on: October 03, 2003, 10:41:39 AM »
Rodney Peete, for what it is worth, is now in his 15th yr. as an NFL quarterback with his 6th different team.  In other words, a number of GM's and Head Coaches in the league have seen something that they like, and continue to pay him to play football.

I should struggle so mightily...

And since we're on the subject, which we shouldn't be, why hasn't Rush's "liberal" media credited Michael Irwin with the 10% rise in the show's ratings?  Didn't Limbaugh and Irwin both join the show this year?  Shouldn't the "liberal" media want to credit the black guy?   And, finally, I have been told by people from Philly, SINCE Limbaugh made the comment, that the sports media in that city has been far less than kind to McNabb over the years.  Hey, maybe Rush really is all that Al Franken alleges!
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #128 on: October 03, 2003, 10:55:49 AM »
Golf course architecture has changed. I don't feel you can effectively discuss "Fazio" without getting into the meat of the brains behind the designs — the people (associates) will greatly affect the work.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #129 on: October 03, 2003, 10:58:33 AM »
I am amazed that at you conservatives (yes YOU conservatives) preach a colorblind world based on merits, yet it is you guys who are constantly injecting race into everything.

It's conservatives who inject race into everything?

We truly are living in different worlds. Makes it a lot easier to understand your views, I guess.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #130 on: October 03, 2003, 11:04:53 AM »
Forrest
Agreed that the work of the associates in the firm will have a great impact on the final product.  

Putting aside for a moment the seemingly insurmountable problem of discussing the work of associates here, isn't this a situation in which
   1. if the senior architect puts his name on it, the course is
       his anyway, and any conclusions drawn about the course
       are fair game?

    2. the public, including GCA, can use the name of the
        architect in the singular, rather than adding the rest of
        the company name and still be accurate?

Otherwise, this is like a politician who says that the things that happened for the bad in his administration were not his fault because he didn't have knowledge of them (which is damning enough in its own right!) but takes credit for the achievements of his subordinates.  You can't have it both ways, can you?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

HamiltonBHearst

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #131 on: October 03, 2003, 11:09:33 AM »


It is indeed perception Mr. Pazin.  I know many (not Mr. Moriarty I do not know him, but he seems sincere in his beliefs) that  rail about exclusivity and racism and the lack of a color-blind society yet still choose to not examine the membership policies of the golf clubs they play at.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #132 on: October 03, 2003, 11:14:37 AM »
I guess I've heard plenty of comments, such as:

"Tillinghast really didn't spend much time there..."

"[so and so] was assisted by his field man, who actually shaped the bunkers and did much of the work..."

"Raynor actually created the plan, but..."

"The course was really designed by..."

- - -

So, my question remains: We are here now — in the present — why would we throw around discussions without seeking some clarification? We certainly have sought clarification in the past...and it seems the information about the past is much more imperfect on which to decide whether some of our "claims" are in fact, accurate.

And..."yes", of course Tom Fazio is ultimately at the helm. But changes in golf architecture have demanded branding — like it or not.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2003, 10:55:53 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #133 on: October 03, 2003, 11:16:59 AM »
Rodney Peete, for what it is worth, is now in his 15th yr. as an NFL quarterback with his 6th different team.

And he landed Holly Robinson.  Gyro needs to tell us what "making it" means!!

Alas, Tommy's career ended in 1990 - his only season away from the Vikings when he was a member of the Saints.  He lasted 12 or 13 years.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #134 on: October 03, 2003, 11:26:51 AM »
JAL-

Couldn't you find a warmer place?  Episodes like this one with Rush, the so-called leak of a CIA's analyst's name, and the ridiculous attempt by the Left to spin the widely succesful Irag war into "another Viet Nam" just make me want to pick-up my ball and go seek refuge.  Is there a way that we can partition the coast of California, say 5 miles inland, from Santa Barbara to just north of Bandon, Oregon?
We can let Dr. Moriarty and his boys visit from time to time so long as they take their government provided medication first and promise to be on their best behavior.

Rush was probably guilty of poor judgement in interjecting his learned opinion on the current status of race relations in this county.   He obviously touched a highly sensitive nerve given the incredible reaction to his demonstrably plausible opinion.  Talk about stupidity:  we now live in a country where a court protects a kid's right to wear a highly offensive T-shirt declaring that our president is an international terrorist, yet Mr. Limbaugh is forced-out as a commentator because he had the temerity of expressing his opinion that race was the reason why an NFL quarterback was coddled by the media.  BTW, I have no problem with either expressing their views and demonstrating just how smart or stupid they are.  The fact that the NFL has specific hiring requirments based on race does suggest that a social goal, not  performance on the field, is at play in the sport.

Lastly, I know that Gyrogolf is not a Fazio fan.  Yet his current approach and tone seem more appropriate for this site.  Personally, I like Fazio's work very much, as I do that of many of the modern architecst.  I have read and own his book, which I find informative and fairly representative of what he puts on the ground.  I understand that Fazio generally has huge budgets to work with, and to those who much is given, much is expected.  I've played a dozen or so Fazio courses and the only one that I've been really disappointed with is Osprey Point.  I disagree entirely with Tommy's take on Shadow Creek.  Not only is it an engineering marvel, it has most of the qualities I value in a course- variety, strategy, playability, beauty, and maintenance meld (the pheasants and other wildlife round it out very nicely).  His Dallas National and Vaquero are in my top five and ten in Texas, respectively, and I wouldn't be surprised if they come to be recognized widely as the best the state has to offer.

Fazio, Nicklaus, Jones, etc. are brands.  The principals' relative contributions to the designs are ambiguous at best, but as long as they bear the label, the success or failure is rightully and directly attributed to them.  Those associates who distinguish themselves and have the entrepreneurial itch will have ample opportunities stemming directly from the work and contacts they've made while being relatively protected behind the brand name.  We see Jim Urbina's name more and more.  From what I've gleaned, I hope that he sticks around with Tom Doak because sometimes synergism is actually more than another superficial fad concept for which consultants are paid so much for.





Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #135 on: October 03, 2003, 12:23:42 PM »
Forrest:

The vast majority of people never meet the architect or anyone else involved with a golf course project. They just go play the course and form an opinion. That's all.

It's kind of like drinking wine or eating in a restaurant. Not many people meet the winemaker or the chef. But, they still can "effectively" express whether they liked their products.

It sounds like you want to get into the "project management" stuff. Fine. When you have such knowledge, share it. But, whether that will make it an "effective" discussion, I don't know. What if you are the only guy on here with knowledge of the project you discuss?
Tim Weiman

JakaB

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #136 on: October 03, 2003, 12:54:17 PM »
So, who is more stupider...a fan of Rush or a fan of Fazio.   Either way you are going to have a bunch of people smarter than you showing you the light.

JohnV

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #137 on: October 03, 2003, 12:55:11 PM »
Talk about stupidity:  we now live in a country where a court protects a kid's right to wear a highly offensive T-shirt declaring that our president is an international terrorist, yet Mr. Limbaugh is forced-out as a commentator because he had the temerity of expressing his opinion that race was the reason why an NFL quarterback was coddled by the media.  

Lou, no court has forced Rush out and no court would.  His free speech is as protected as anyones.  But, if you go onto a national TV show that many people of all races watch and say something that might offend many of those people, you have to expect to get heat.  He could say what he said on his radio show because his audience will just nod and go "ditto", but at ESPN there are a lot of people watching who got offended.  He chose to resign rather than continue to have to watch what he said.  He wasn't fired and no court said he couldn't say what he did, except for the court of public opinion and he chose not to appeal.

As for the leaking of the CIA Analyst, someone in the government told Bob Novak (an obvious member of the liberal  media ::) ) her name and he chose to run with it.  Seems pretty dangerous and stupid to me.  If that had happened when Bill Clinton was president and it was a liberal columnist wouldn't you be upset and wanting someone to find out who leaked it?

TEPaul

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #138 on: October 03, 2003, 12:57:54 PM »
JakaB said;

"I have not read the "Fazio" book...I have been in the same room as it..and have even touched it...but it was so obviously a propaganda sales tool for people who might as well read links magazine..that I am offended to find it quoted on this site.  I expect a little more from you people."

JakaB:

Just when I think it's not possible for you to come up with something funnier or more off the wall you come up with THAT!

I love you man--you are a really great addition to this website--you're the craziest addition but who cares? It'd be much less interesting without you! And once again, if you'd be so kind as to accept my generosity I'd be more than happy to pay for the first six of your needed next dozen sessions with Dr. Katz!

TEPaul

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #139 on: October 03, 2003, 01:04:50 PM »
I've never listened to these characters like Limbaugh or O'Rielly but I did see an interview on TV with O'Reilly the other day about this big dispute he's having with Al Franken. I really wasn't paying much attention and O'Reilly wasn't saying anything to the interviewer particularly engaging until the very end of the interview when he (O'Reilly) said he wished this was the wild west because if it was he'd drag the little weasel (Franken) into the street and shoot him!

That got my attention--terrific stuff there!  ;)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #140 on: October 03, 2003, 01:32:29 PM »
Lou Duran--"I disagree entirely with Tommy's take on Shadow Creek.  Not only is it an engineering marvel, it has most of the qualities I value in a course- variety, strategy, playability, beauty, and maintenance meld (the pheasants and other wildlife round it out very nicely)."

Lou, When did you get your PhD in Spin Doctoring? Please, please! don't be writing any more prescriptions for Mr. Limbo!!!!

I beg you to find a single post where I don't produce constant amazment of the degree of earthmovement and creativity it took to do it at Shadow Creek. I have never really said anything about strategy or beauty either, although I tend to think your over-exgerating it a bit, but that's a given considering we are bringing Russ Limbo into this. :) In fact, I think I have always accentuated the negative because there was so much positive--you know, to be lightly contrarian if you will.

And I will reiterate again:

What I don't like about Shadow Creek is that the many of the scenarios are repeticious, as well as some of the most boring, least inspired putting surfaces I have ever seen for a TOP 10 rated course. I think I also said I find it amazing that a local muni here in Downey has more interesting putting surfaces then the great Shadow Creek. What was it C.B. MacDonald said? Putting greens should be like the faces of a portrait.." (Or something to that effect)

I think #5 is a beautiful golf hole, and the ability to recreate the feeling, yet, not duplcating the 5th at Pine Valley is totally amazing. I think that having an opening between holes 3 & 4 (buffered by a pond) proved to me that Tom Fazio relies too much on isolating golf holes from one another, and that when he opens the field of site, he is REALLY good. I think he also builds some really good looking bunkers--and most of them at Shadow Creek just don't figure into the line of play because there are so many easier ways to get to the hole.

I could go on and on, and ultimately, you aren't going to agree with my opinions on the course because you'll be too busy equating my non-partisan ways as being too liberal, and they aren't, they're middle of the road. Why then would I be the eteremist/purist I love to be?

Just remember Lou, it takes a villag.....I mean a golf course for all of us to realize the great thiings in Golf! :) (Thanks Hil!)


HamiltonBHearst

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #141 on: October 03, 2003, 01:52:09 PM »

Now we have Redanman(i love the name) mocking Rush for making innapropriate comments.  Wasn't it you who made comments about Tiger that some on this site deemed offensive and racist?

JohnV

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #142 on: October 03, 2003, 01:56:20 PM »
Brother Bill, is it true that Oxycontin can cause hearing loss?  Someone told me that she had heard that this morning.

Thinks that make you go hmmmm......

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #143 on: October 03, 2003, 02:14:22 PM »
JakaB-

That's scary.  If I am a fan of both, i.e. Limbaugh and Fazio, is my overall stupidity a simple addition or is it exponential?  I guess that I've grossly estimated my own horsepower.

JohnV-

No legitimate court proceeding may be able to silence Rush, but the Left is sure pretty effective in ensuring that opinions contrary to its dogma are hushed and discredited.  Not being in the group that has trouble with chads and punch cards, I am not terribly concerned about this, but I do get indignant when the attacks become personal and the attackers seek nothing less than total destruction.

Sir Chales can get on a national sports show, make all sorts of racially insensitive remarks about whites, and these are found to be witty and full of enlightment.  Limbaugh makes a remark which does not attack the QB, only that he gets special treatment from the press because of race, and you think that he summarily endorsed the extermination of all people of color.  Do you believe that the timing of the drug accusations leveled at Rush is a little coincidental?  Or that of Arnold groping a few women (in a rowdy movie set in Hollywood no less; oh, the horror!) surfaces as a front page article on a liberal newspaper a few days before an election?  I wonder how many liberal types in the media take illegal drugs rather openly without the press making it sound like the end of the world?  Do we dare post an investigator to document the comings and goings of our entertainment and political heroes?  How about the relatively well-known aberrant sexual escapades of such fine liberal politicians as Kennedy and Dodd?  Why doesn't some paper print it on the front page right before each election?

In terms of the leak of the CIA analyst's identity.  By all means, if it was a covered person and a law was broken,  that individual or individuals should be prosecuted in a manner commesurate with the gravity of the act.  I guess that it doesn't bother you that Ellsberg was elevated to the level of secular sainthood by the Left, or that Agee is a hero to some Americans who really do hate America.

In as far as President Clinton, my regard for him as a politician and as a person is so low that it would not surprise me if he personally published a list of the most effective intelligence agents along with all the needed contact information.  His administration did everything it could to undermine the CIA, the FBI, and the military.   Clinton did not trust his country, and I suspect that he is more comfortable with a bi-polar world situation with the checks and balances of mutual destruction than one where the U.S. is the sole superpower.

JohnV, I do hope that as you search for your game you will also seek to broaden your horizons.  This can happen by reading Friedman, Milton not Tom, and mixing in a few others such as Sowell, Bennett, and even an occasional Coulter.  I am personally enjoying Joe Conason's "Big Lies" (though he is guilty of several just on the first page), and I am on the waiting list at the library for Senator Clinton's first-hand account of their administration.   I must say, learning that the right-wing really controls the media and that Ms. Clinton was totally in the dark about her husband's sexual propensities will be difficult to accomplish without some psychodelic substances.  Now that the media is planting the seed that Rush was also selling, perhaps I can get my supply directly from him.  Kind of like keeping it in the family.


TEPaul-

It pains me to no end to learn that you may be one of the dreaded comotose moderates.  For all the credit I've given you for your "maintenance meld" concept, most has been offset by your desire to position yourself above the ruckus.
 

JohnV

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #144 on: October 03, 2003, 02:28:32 PM »
JohnV-

I do get indignant when the attacks become personal and the attackers seek nothing less than total destruction.


Lou, I've had the misfortune to listen to Rush 3 or 4  times over the years and I find it impossible to believe that anyone could defend him and then say they don't like personal attacks.

Barkley (who is pretty conservative in many of his political views) should be equally chastised for his coments.

Funny, Arnold's groping unconsenting women who worked for/with him is ok with conservatives, but Bill's BJ in the Oval Office from a consenting adult wasn't.

There is way too much situational morality practiced by both sides of all these issues.  I'm tired of that.  If just for once, a conservative would bash Rush or a liberal would bash Bill, I'd be happy to hear it.

TEPaul

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #145 on: October 03, 2003, 02:51:46 PM »
"Turn on your radio, Tom.  IT's more important to listen to these adgenda-driven wackos like Rush and Shawn Hannity who follows him on WABC NY 770 than your Perry Como CD's."

redanman:

I don't want to listen to Rush and whomever Shawn Hannity is. Frankly, I'm getting confused and very depressed and would rather sit quietly if I'm driving my car thinking about a ball slowly coming back off a beautiful "kick-up" and into the hole.

The last president we had couldn't tell the truth and had to redefine the word "the" or "is" as well as what sex is and isn't and this president feels the need to redefine good and evil. That's all too much for me to comprehend.

Jimmy the Greek gets booted off the air for defining the differences between ankles that have dark skin wrapped around them compared to white skin--Ben Wright for stating the obvious about breasts and lesbianism on the LPGA-- McCord for mentioning bikini-wax at ANGC--now Limbo for stating my own team's black (or African American or whatever he's calling himself this month) quarterback is coddled by the press and ain't as good as somebody thinks he is!

There are discontented people everywhere calling KennyV and JohnnyM idiots, calling Davis Love a wimp and Tiger Woods horrible names because he wins too much and gets too emotional about sinking a important long putt or something.

My golf game is terrible and I live in mortal fear that my club might fire Gil and hire Tom Fazio and ruin the remaining bunkers on my course that Gil hasn't gotten to yet. This makes it hard for me to sleep well. I ask some guy a question about a remark he made about an architect friend of mine and he won't stop calling me an asshole, a f... and a grumpy old man!

I can't listen to even Perry Como anymore because I'm not sure about furiners anymore (except all the English of course) and I suspect Perry's grandfather may have been a furiner! The only people I can really trust are Bill Coore, Geoff Shackelford and TommyN. I've tried hard to understand JakaB and I can't do it and he's always outfoxing me.

No, I don't want to listen to Rush--I want to sit very quietly in a chair in the sun and look very slowly at old Saturday Evening Posts with covers by Norman Rockwell of little school girls with pigtails and bandaids on their knees or A Mom putting a hot apple pie on the windowsill.

Have a nice day.   ;)



 

 


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #146 on: October 03, 2003, 02:59:57 PM »
Make sure there's an extra chair for me too Tom!

TEPaul

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #147 on: October 03, 2003, 03:01:14 PM »
Lou;

You couldn't possibly categorize me a 'comatose moderate'. Actually it's pretty hard to categorize the politics of someone who's about 11/16ths crazy. But right now I'd take all these jokers of all active political persuasions and put them in the same cave I want to put all the magazine raters and  double seal the exit.

All I know is that Pat Mucci and Rich Goodale are almost always wrong and Max Behr, a man of laser-beam vision and clarity of thought, never was. And of course I'm 100% certain that rpurd is an award winning jerk!    ;)

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #148 on: October 03, 2003, 05:50:52 PM »
JohnV-

I've been listening somewhat irregularly to Rush for years, and with the exception of his occasional parodies, I find that most of his commentary deal with issues.  I have certainly not heard him attacking his political foes with anything close to the same invective tone that is often directed at him and the so-called "radical right".  He is a showman and entertainer, and his comments in jest about the "femme-Nazis" and Enviromental Whackos" are rather tame when compared to the serious characterizations by the Left that conservatives are a bunch of mean little Hitlers who want to starve the children, poison the air, and kill-off the senior citizens.

Certainly you have to know that the deal with Clinton was not about him getting BJs from a 20-year old White House intern.  Frankly, a number of us feel quite sorry for the guy having "Ole Pumpkin Legs" to wake up to nearly every day.  The problem with Clinton is that he was a so called pioneer of women's rights in the workplace, and yet he clearly appears to have been a serious sexual predator.  Arnold is being accused of coping a feel.  No legal charges have ever been filed,  Bad, bad man.  Perhaps his wife should leave him.

By contrast, Clinton was sued and he lied under oath to deny his victim to opportunity to prevail in court.  I know what you guys say, it was all he said-she said, she is white trash, it is just about sex, it is all a right-wing consipiracy.  Bull shit!  There is very good evidence that Clinton has forced himself on numerous women, but because he comes across as a champion of women's issues he gets a free pass from the Left.  The ironic thing about Clinton is that he is much more of a demagogue than an idelogue, and since he has taken over the once credible Democrat Party, the Republicans have become a force to contend with.  The Clintons and their supporters from the Viet Nam war era are the creators of the politics of personal destruction.  That we are polarized so much as a nation is largely a product of this rudderless group.

In as far as situational ethics, the conservatives have a much better record of being accountable when they are wrong.  Nixon would not have resigned if the Republicans had adopted the Democrat Party's circle the wagons approach to save Clinton.  His own Republican allies forced him out.  Bob Packwood, a Republican by name only, was booted out for kissing and otherwise putting the moves on on women on his staff.  Both Republican leaders of the House and Senate resigned, one for an extra-marital infidelity that was reported by Democrat Larry Flynt, the other because he said some nice things about a retiring Senate colleague.  Conservatives are people and people make mistakes.  For the most part, we own up to it and take our punishment like grown-ups.

Like Limbaugh who reportedly makes $30MM per year and has over 20 MM listeners, not too shabby for a crackpot, Fazio is probably the most in demand person in his business.  Despite MM$+ fees, he has the opportunity to do more work than nearly anyone else.  Why?  Because his clients, primarily rich people, are a bunch of idiots who know nothing about golf?  Please!!!!  These are the many of the same folks in the top 1% of the population who we are trying to tax out of existence.  They are not the people who need help with confusing punch cards and hanging chads.  And why should we cut them some slack?  After all, they got more than what they need.  From a purely selfish standpoint, simply because if it weren't for them we would be much more like our European friends.  For the most part, they pay the bills, create the jobs, and take the risk.  But rather than hold them up as examples, we call them selfish, greedy, mean-spirited, "winners of life's lottery", right-wing, corporate thiefs, "the establishment", and any other negative name we can create.  For shame.

TEP- please make me the same offer that you did to JakaB.  I am ready for my sessions.

RushL- please forward three months supply.

TomF- see you at SC when it reopens?

GeoW- forgive them, for they do not know.

   

   

TEPaul

Re:You guys are stupid...#2 Typical Fazio
« Reply #149 on: October 03, 2003, 06:08:55 PM »
".....that conservatives are a bunch of mean little Hitlers who want to starve the children, poison the air, and kill-off the senior citizens."

Lou:

Is that what the left says about the radical right? Hey you can count me in on two out of three of those idea if they promise to follow through every now and again.   ;)