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Scott Warren

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Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« on: October 27, 2016, 04:22:13 PM »
Let's be honest: if you're not a golf architect or otherwise in the business, then using the term 'green complex(es)' makes you sound like a bit of a cock.

But sometimes you want to talk about the sum of the parts at that end of the hole.

So is there another term that's more layman-appropriate?!

JESII

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2016, 04:42:17 PM »
Green and Surrounds is definitely wonkyer and cockier...

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2016, 04:46:22 PM »
One definition for the noun "complex" is “A group or system of different things that are linked in a close or complicated way.”


The term "green complex" isn't arbitrary or made-up. It's an accurate two-word representation of the thing it refers to. Why make up a euphemism for it?  ???
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2016, 04:58:28 PM »
Scott,

Did you read my current GCI column?  I used that term.....

As Tim mentions, it really is a group or system of different things that are linked in a close or complicated way.  So, the term is apt.  Not that I'm not personally willing to see if there is some more apt term out there.  Then, we can reserve "green complex" as a term for those who hate salad and veggies......or for Kermit the Frog's mental state.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

paul cowley

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2016, 05:45:31 PM »
On many of my best 'green complexes' I use the term Gestalt Grouping...as in "the hole terminates in a Gestalt Grouping of blah blah"


On my lesser efforts I often use the term Mr Potato Head...as in "the hole terminates in a Mr Potato Head assemblage of so and so"
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 05:52:32 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

RJ_Daley

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2016, 05:58:05 PM »
Geez Scott, I would have never thought of such a simple and accurate term, as others have noted, as puttin on the wank.

Are you more sympathetic to acronyms?   How about G.C.s,  or G.S. & S.s  as in greens surrounds and structures, or E. of  F.W.T.A., end of fairway target area...  ::) ;D

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2016, 06:00:57 PM »
RJ,

Or just the "hole end thingy....."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Greg Gilson

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2016, 06:49:18 PM »
Not that I spent any time thinking about it but I reckon "green complex" says it perfectly? Maybe I am just a wanker.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2016, 06:56:13 PM »
Yes:  my friend Ron Prichard says just call it all the green!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2016, 07:01:21 PM »
I find it charming that Scott believes he needs a more "layman-appropriate term".  I mean, how many such layman can there be? I'm guessing that the moment Scott mentions "green complexes" the majority of folks start wandering away as if they'd just lost their keys, mumbling something like "Excuse me -- the wife's got a cold, you see".  And whoever is still standing there can't possibly be a "layman"....


Colin Macqueen

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2016, 07:24:42 PM »
Scott,
That is a complex question and as I am a bit green in these sorts of matters I canna help ye oot!


Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2016, 07:38:02 PM »
I hate the term. But if you limit yourself to the term "green" most reader will think you are referring to the putting surface.


But thanks for giving us "wanky". That's a keeper.

Josh Stevens

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2016, 08:09:44 PM »
Shall we add it to the list of other appalling Americanisms that John Huggan is crusading to have abolished:

Hole location 
Tee box
Putting surface
Sand trap
Flag stick
Tee ball
Flat stick
Double eagle......

we could be here all day

JLahrman

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2016, 10:14:25 PM »
To me, 'greensite' implies more than just the actual putting surface, and also makes one sound like less of a cock.

Rees Milikin

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2016, 10:28:13 PM »
GreenCock

paul cowley

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2016, 11:16:45 PM »
OK...all joking aside, what's wrong with green complex as opposed to a housing complex...or a military industrial complex etc? They all refer to the complexities of how various components combine to work together as a whole...the same holds true for the area surrounding and including a green site.


I don't understand how that creates some kind of a wanker connection.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 11:23:17 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

JLahrman

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2016, 11:46:10 PM »
OK...all joking aside, what's wrong with green complex as opposed to a housing complex...or a military industrial complex etc? They all refer to the complexities of how various components combine to work together as a whole...the same holds true for the area surrounding and including a green site.

I don't understand how that creates some kind of a wanker connection.

It shouldn't but it does...a housing complex is a neighborhood, if you want to sound less wanky.

Rees Milikin

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2016, 11:48:27 PM »
Greencock, anyone?

Brian Finn

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2016, 07:46:52 AM »
Bump.  Please, everyone take an hour today to work on solving this critical dilemma.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

BHoover

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2016, 08:10:54 AM »
If I'm being completely honest, I got very little sleep last night trying to come up with a less-wanky term.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 08:21:10 AM by Brian Hoover »

MClutterbuck

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2016, 08:47:47 AM »
Do minimalist architects talk about a green complex in a site where they do no shaping?

Niall C

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2016, 09:07:55 AM »
MC

I don't see why not. Even if there is no shaping, the green, the bunkers (if they exist), the surrounds all combine together to give you a green complex. As an aside I'd say that my understanding of minimalism doesn't necessarily mean no shaping but more like that appears there has been no shaping.

Niall

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2016, 11:04:36 AM »
Technically the term "green" refers to the entire golf course. Early examples include:


1743 Thomas Mathison The Goff 14: Thrice round the green they urge the whizzing ball....
1833 George Fullerton Carnegie Golfiana (in Clark Golf: A Royal & Ancient Game 1875, 141): The green has its bunkers, its hazards, and rubs.....
1868 Minutes of the Edinburgh Burgess Golfing Society (in Clark op cit. 111): The committee appointed to report to Braid Hills as a Golfing Green, played there today, and enjoyed the game amazingly.
1890 Tom Morris Badminton Golf 431: Three years after Allan deed I cam to keep the Green here....


Official examples of the putting green include:


1815 Regulations (Aberdeen) (in Clapcott 1935, 51):   ....all loose impediments may be removed on the putting green, which is declared to be 15 yards from the hole around.
1857 H.B. Farnie The Golfers Manual 14: These holes are placed on especially smooth tables of turf called putting greens.


Technically the term putting green needs to be included in whatever terminology you develop to describe everything encompassed in the area around the green. That can be a substantial part of the green proper when you are considering a course built by the likes of Alison who shaped putting green fill pads with green side bunkers and broad approaches with over 1/2 an acre footprint.




« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 11:07:13 AM by Bradley Anderson »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2016, 12:31:09 PM »
Got to thinking about this last night, and pulled up an old green design checklist I used to give the guys back when....well when I had guys.  I copy it here, and am sorry the formatting doesn't quite carry over.  Not meant for prime time, really, so its a bit inconsistent.  I post it only to show the detail thought that goes into finalizing a green design that works.

Only a few items cover aesthetics and playability items that most of you would consider "design".  The other 50-75 are details that I (and I think most other architects in similar fashion) usually require design attention to create an attractive and fully functional green for maintenance, drainage, irrigation and path use.

Obviously, some are my subjective view that you may not agree with.  Do all bunkers need to be visible?  Do some architects stick owners with bunkers too steep to hold sand up, etc.  And, many green sites do require compromise, and not all items can be worked out equally well.   My experience really is not to break any of these rules too often, and not to make too many exceptions on any one green, or long term maintenance problems are sure to ensue.

In a quick review, I am sure there are items I missed, too!

GREEN DESIGN CHECK LIST

Each green design must accomplish ALL of the following:

Golf Playability

Must be adequate target from normal fairway landing zones, i.e. proper size, angle, opening, etc.
Must be different from every other green on course for variety
Should be different than other greens of same par
Must fit site comfortably
Set Green Elevation for Visibility from main landing zones
Green must slope up to back at least 1.3% to assist holding shots
Green must slope up to back as required for visibility

Air and Sunlight

Attain at least 4 hours of morning sun – Clear trees to ultimate height on NE and E sides of green
Good Air Circulation cutting a slot, if necessary, to allow prevailing wind to find green.
If absolutely required, add fans (often a sign of bad design)
On West and North Side, design to save specimen trees (no grading under drip line)
Keep cart paths away from tree roots

Player Circulation

Must provide dry path of suitable width for
•   Players walking to green from fairway
•   Players walking to green from Cart Path
•   Players walking off green to next tee
•   Players walking off green to Cart Path
For all exit routes, circulation path should be forward, not back into line of play.
High traffic routes need adequate width to spread wear

Maintainability

All area must be mowable –
•   Green – Max 15%
•   Transition Slopes:
   o   Off Green – Usually about 15%, gradually flattening out on to putting surface
   o   From Banks to Natural Ground (usually more gradual near tie in
   o   Tops of Mounds and Ridges Soft Enough to avoid scalping
   •   Rough Banks – 33% unless accepting weed whack
   •   Fairway Banks – About 20%, some turfs up to 22%

Greens Must have at least 900-1015 SF of Cup Space (usually sub 3%)
Must provide:
•   Access route for mowers on to greens
•   Ability to turn riding mowers off the green surface
•   Transition slopes that don’t scalp

Irrigation - Irrigation heads located so:
   •   no dry spots encountered
   •   no wet spots encountered
   •   Heavy Traffic Areas Get More Water than less trafficked areas
   •   System designed to water all the way to proposed clearing line.

Drainage – Grading, pipes and catch basins located so:
   •   Set Green Elevation for good drainage
   •   No upland water crosses green, except small backing mounds
   •   less than half acre of upland water crosses cart parking zones
   •   Drainage directed away from Heavy Traffic Areas
   •   Greens surfaces require 2-3 directional drainage
   •   Slopes and swales near green should be minimum of 3-4% (not 2-3%) to assure surface drainage.

Cart Path Location - Locate cart path so that:

   •   Generally, path on slice side for maximum usage, if practical.
   •   Follows shortest line/most natural path to next tee, for maximum usage
   •   Widens to 10-12 feet as appropriate to accommodate parking, preferred on back half of green.
   •   Place Curbs to Control Traffic
   •   Parking zones shall be at least 40 foot long to disperse traffic to multiple exit points.
   •   Locate Path to allow easy access from fairway to green cart path, spreading wear.
   •   Is at least:
     o   40 feet from green at back,
     o   45 feet on left,
     o   50 feet on right,
     o   60 foot max anywhere (any further, and golfers pull off to get closer)
•   Main access area from path to green:
    o   Gradual and constant slope (sub 10%)
    o   Eliminate any mound, tree, or similar obstruction that concentrates traffic on either side.
    o   Wide enough to accommodate traffic (i.e., 2 feet wide per 1000 rounds of golf)
    o   Allow one ADA path from cart path to green (Max 5% slope, 2% cross slope)
•   Adjust cart path to, to pick up overland drainage outside of path, etc.
•   Better to use small basins off path or trench drains in path, than let water run on path to curb.
 
Constructability

Design and Elevation Set to:
    o   Balance cut and fill, where possible, or to minimize fills
    o   Prepare overall drainage plan before designing green grades.
   Assure positive flow to critical outlet grade for tile into lakes/pipes.
   Set lowest grade possible to attain adequate catch basin, minimum cover, adequate pipe size and gradient to nearest drain outlet. 
   For greens near bodies of water, set water levels, overflow points for dams
   For greens in floodplain, lowest grade 1.5 feet above 100-year flood level
   o   Build path in cut or natural grade, not fills (i.e. a waste of dirt, needs compaction)

Finish Feature Design

   o   Green Surrounds Contours should “take their cue” from nature, i.e., the high side should be on the natural high side, low side on natural low side.
   o   Strive for Design Variety – on green surface and green surrounds. 
  o   Back/Top Edge of green looks better with rolling edge @ 10-20%. 

Sand Bunker Design

   o   Check Vision from prime landing zones
   o   On cross section if designing on plan
   o   From Lowest Vision area of Landing Zone
   o   Top of Bunkers should:
      •   Divert surface water from entering bunker
      •   Minimize Vision Blocks to green surfaces beyond
      •   Allow 6-9' feet outside green collar for mower turning
   o   Base grade is near natural grade, no large fills to base of sand bunker unless required to drain
  o   Reasonable Bunker Depth (usually 3-4 feet, but varies, needs to be considered considering public, private, etc.)
  o   Bunker Slopes:
   Base slope of bunkers tilt 2-5% towards golfer for vision.
   Back of bunker can flash up Maximum 25% for most sands
   Maximum 12-18% if no liner to prevent erosion for most sands.
o   If applicable to maintenance program, sand lobes allow turning bunker rake (typ.16-18’)
o   If applicable to maintenance program, turf lobes allow mower turning (typ.16-25’)
o   Variation for visual artistry:
    o   Top edge of each lobe different height
    o   Width, Shape of each lobe different.in elevation of the top edge of the bunker
    o   Each bunker should be different style, size, shape, etc. from others.   

Mounding/Earth Forms Elevations

1.   Generally, all should have different spacing and top elevation for naturalness, variety.  Every green should have a different look in the surrounds.
2.   Should Be Higher on Natural High Side of Green. 
3.   Should follow/relate to natural contours as much as new green angle, shape.
4.   Adjust mounds and cart path so that a variety of mounding patterns may accrue while still maintaining access to greens.
5.   Fills must die at path, no swales between cart path and green.
6.   Make sure no mound over 3-4' in height drains on the green.
7.   Fit design to available area. Avoid squeezing six pounds into a five pound bag.  Adjust hazards/mound/earth forms to fit trees to save, etc.
8.   Consider perimeter irrigation limit heads of greens or backup row of heads when grading mounds.
9.    Exaggerate design. It always looks softer when finished.
10.    Look at green to see if there is one thing that can be done better to enhance artistic concerns and then do it. 
11.  Consider entire range of bag of tricks

Anyway, after looking at the list of little things that must be done right to attain a functioning green, I guess I am more inclined to just keep calling it a green complex
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Is there a less wanky term for 'green complex'?
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2016, 03:59:14 PM »
Jeff, thanks for that check list. If i had to come up with a list myself I might have come up with a third of it but certainly not the entire list. Those are some of the practical things that guys like me would or certainly could overlook. Thanks
I think it deserves a thread of its own so it doesn't get lost.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

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