The Before and After Game

[Peter Pallotta]

Foolishly perhaps I've just invented (or re-branded) a game that I myself am not qualified to play!  Many of you are qualified, however, so let the fun begin.

It's a simply game really: I name an iconic classic course and you a) fill in the name of the modern course you think best reflects/replicates/mirrors/parallels that earlier course's playability and/or style and/or ethos; and then b) decide which of the two you think is a better and/or more enjoyable course (or, if you prefer, assign a numerical ranking, 1-10, to both courses in order to thus compare them).

There are five US classics and 5 GB&I classics.  You needn't match/fill in all of them, nor match a US course with a US course or a GB&I with a GB&I. The winner is the poster whose list/opinions I happen to agree with most.

So:

1. Walton Heath (Old) = ?
2. Garden City = ?
3. Muirfield (UK) = ?
4. Prairie Dunes = ?
5. Swinley Forest = ?
6. Oakmont = ?
7. Rye = ?
8. Pinehurst #2 = ?
9. Notts = ?
10. Pasatiempo = ?

Peter
 

[Dan Gallaway]

While I have nothing to contribute to this thread.  I am truly intrigued by the qualified responses.  A question I've often considered yet not know how to verbalize.  Let the game begin.

[John Kavanaugh]

I love to see an epic failure of a good intentioned thread. Any theories on what happened here?

[John Kavanaugh]

Let me make this easier for everyone and ask the question in another way. What classic course best emulates the everything wonderful about Pacific Dunes? Cypress Point? or perhaps, a course in Heaven only played by God himself? In other words, how do you compare a Tesla to a Model T?

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks for bringing it back up, John. Perhaps your interest will breathe new life into it. 

You're right, it is/was an epic failure. You're not so right on your follow-up post. I choose the 10 courses with some care, wanting to look at certain qualities then and now - e.g. flat sites, championship tests, resort courses etc.  I didn't pick Cypress or Pebble or Dornoch or The Old with some care as well; we don't need another thread on Bandon.

Many possible explanations for the failure:

1. My name is mud around here.
2. It's no fun. And there isn't an actual prize to be won.
3. It is too easy/too hard to compare past and present, and the fruits of such comparisons are negligible.

Good luck with your new thread. I think it won't be a failure.

Pete 

[Ken Moum]

Peter,

If this has failed, it HAS TO be the fact that so few among this group, as traveled as it is, have the experience to attempt an answer. 

Not to mention the stones it takes to go there. 

Maybe Doak....

So, I've played exactly one of the courses on your list, and only twice, in a howling wind both times. PD, in case you wondered.

But... I've  galleried the Women's Open there, and I was a walking scorer at the Div. 1 NCAA  Championship there, so I've seen it from the regular tees and the Way-Back tees.

A modern courselves that sort of goes there, that I've played?

Wild Horse.

My opinion is that PD makes the line between a decent shot and screw you, you piece of garbage a little too thin.

When one of the best college players in the country hits an iron shot that lands in the fringe of a green and is left with a 1 percent chance of making a bogey, you've got to wonder.

One of my players , starting on ten, shot 35 followed by a 54.

Wild Horse, on the other hand,  is no Prairie Dunes,  but it is a little less likely to turn a 4 into a 7.

Now, I'm as offended by card-and-pencil obsession as anyone,  but I do think golf should be interesting,  not punishing.

And despite  all the distaste for penal architecture, bloody difficult courses get just a little too much love around here.

I think I "get" hard courses, but being able to find your ball and attempt a recovery is a hell of a lot more interesting than playing a provisional.

FWIW,  one of the things that amazed me in working at two Division 1 Championships and a Central Regional,  is just how damned good our college players are at forgetting their last swing.

At Karsten Creek and Prairie Dunes I've seen more than a couple of dozen provisional balls and not one failed to find the fairway.

One more thought. My wife and I have scored for Patrick Reed, Peter Uhlien,  Bud Cauley, Maverick McNealy, Smiley Kauffman and Bryson Dechambeau among others.

If there are any college events in your area you simply must look at volunteering.  They nearly all need help.

And being a walking scorer is the BEST way to see them play. 

K

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks Ken - that was an excellent post, and just what I wss hoping for.

I really didn't think the thread would be outside the scope of folks here. Your thoughtful paralleling of PD with WH I assumed could be matched by dozens of other posters for at least one course each.

[Sean_A]

Thanks for bringing it back up, John. Perhaps your interest will breathe new life into it. 

You're right, it is/was an epic failure. You're not so right on your follow-up post. I choose the 10 courses with some care, wanting to look at certain qualities then and now - e.g. flat sites, championship tests, resort courses etc.  I didn't pick Cypress or Pebble or Dornoch or The Old with some care as well; we don't need another thread on Bandon.

Many possible explanations for the failure:

1. My name is mud around here.
2. It's no fun. And there isn't an actual prize to be won.
3. It is too easy/too hard to compare past and present, and the fruits of such comparisons are negligible.

Good luck with your new thread. I think it won't be a failure.

Pete

Pietro


For me at least, your game is very difficult because I play so few top notch modern courses.  I thought I perhaps could find a way to couple Dormie Club and Swinley Forest, but that is a big stretch....Dormie is far more finicky than SF.  I thought about it some more...and my conclusion is that Castle Stuart, Kingsbarns and to a lesser degree Renaissance are all too finicky to match up with one of your classics.  There is simply a lot more blantantly obvious architecture in these modern designs.  The older courses rely on what the land offers to a much larger degree than the moderns....at least thats my take..and one I wasn't cognizant of prior to your game. 


Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Ken,


Where did this occur at Prairie Dunes..."When one of the best college players in the country hits an iron shot that lands in the fringe of a green and is left with a 1 percent chance of making a bogey, you've got to wonder."?

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks for your post, Sean.  I appreciate the effort, and the glimpses of possible answers, e.g. Dormie and Swinley, are tantalizing. I still think there is something to be learned, specifically as well as in general (e.g. too finicky) in the comparisons, but I have no idea what...

Peter 

[jeffwarne]

Foolishly perhaps I've just invented (or re-branded) a game that I myself am not qualified to play!  Many of you are qualified, however, so let the fun begin.

It's a simply game really: I name an iconic classic course and you a) fill in the name of the modern course you think best reflects/replicates/mirrors/parallels that earlier course's playability and/or style and/or ethos; and then b) decide which of the two you think is a better and/or more enjoyable course (or, if you prefer, assign a numerical ranking, 1-10, to both courses in order to thus compare them).

There are five US classics and 5 GB&I classics.  You needn't match/fill in all of them, nor match a US course with a US course or a GB&I with a GB&I. The winner is the poster whose list/opinions I happen to agree with most.

So:

1. Walton Heath (Old) = ? Old Sandwich
2. Garden City = ? Boston Golf Club
3. Muirfield (UK) = ? The Bridge- strategically placed severe bunkering and dead if out of maintained turf areas
4. Prairie Dunes = ? Ballyneal
5. Swinley Forest = ? Shadow Creek
6. Oakmont = ? Crooked Stick
7. Rye = ?  Sand Hills or Tara Iti
8. Pinehurst #2 = ? Dormie
9. Notts = ?  Mt. Juliet
10. Pasatiempo = ? Sebonack


 

see above- a weak stab but a stab
Lots of clever old subtle courses on the left side
modern subtle gets no press so if they're out there we aren't aware enough

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,

That is exactly why I started the infallible thread. Too bad you felt the need to qualify your pick of The Bridge. Don't go PC on us now.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff,

That is exactly why I started the infallible thread. Too bad you felt the need to qualify your pick of The Bridge. Don't go PC on us now.

[Ian Andrew]

Peter,

It's that most of the courses you choose are hard to work with.
Many are singular in their style and nature.

For example, there is only one Oakmont.
Architects admire it, but its never the key influence for a new project.

Whereas Pinehurst #2 and Prairie Dunes should be easy.
Those were two good starting points.