[Thomas Dai]

What would be nominations (and honorable mentions) for the best 18 Alister MacKenzie greens in GB?


Okay I appreciate that you really can't evaluate a green without evaluating the complete hole but for the sake of discussion, best greens....but ignoring the famous Sitwell Park one!


To start a famous one plus two others that are maybe not so immediately obvious.


1
2
3
4
5 Broadway - drop-shot - par-3
6
7
8
9
10 Moortown - Gibraltor - par-3
11
12
13
14
15 Weston-super-Mare - Road Hole copy - par 4/5
16
17
18


Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

15 at Alwoodley, got to be one from Duff House Royal. Seem to remember a good green at Ilkley. Are we including Ireland? If so, I'd go for the Par-3 11th at Lahinch and there's a couple at Cork.

[Jon Wiggett]

2nd at Cleckheaton
3rd at Alwoodley
6th at Howley Hall
9th at Howley Hall
17th at Sandmoor16th at Headingly

[Marty Bonnar]

Pitreavie 3, 6 and 13 could be in the mix...

[Marty Bonnar]

The current 1st at the Eden? 

[Sean_A]

What would be nominations (and honorable mentions) for the best 18 Alister MacKenzie greens in GB?

Okay I appreciate that you really can't evaluate a green without evaluating the complete hole but for the sake of discussion, best greens....but ignoring the famous Sitwell Park one!

To start a famous one plus two others that are maybe not so immediately obvious.

1  Cavendish
2
3  Cavendish
4  Worcester



5  Broadway - drop-shot - par-3
6  W'shire
7  Worcester
8  Weston-s-Mare



9  W'shire
10 Moortown - Gibraltor - par-3
11
12  Worcester!



13 
14  W'shire!



15  Weston-super-Mare - Road Hole copy - par 4/5 Cavendish
16 
17
18

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

The current 1st at the Eden? 

pfft... your dissing of Mr Colt is getting wearisome    you know as well as I do that there is no evidence at all that Dr Mac had any involvement on the Eden.

[James Boon]

As already mentioned its tricky taking the green in isolation, but here goes with a couple of his courses I'm familiar with...

Alwoodley:
3, the lower left tier is a great feature
14, quite a drop off front left as I recall
15, plenty of interesting movement

Cavendish:
2, very wide but narrow front to back, steep left to right slope, big drop off at front and dry stone wall over the back as OOB. If nothing else comes forward its a possibility... 
3, interesting movement here that makes holding with a drive or getting close with a pitch interesting.
6, not a great hole but there is actually a decent green at the end of it
8, hidden behind a bunker with a few run offs and plenty of movement
15, well its my favourite Mackenzie green!

Interesting side note on Cavendish is that while some of the greens have plenty going on, others are actually quite flat? For instance 10, 14 and 18 are possibly 3 of the best holes on the course, but all have relativly flat greens (not including the big false front on 14)?

I've probably got photos somewhere of Cavendish greens if I get time... Or what about Mackenzies NLE pitch and putt in Buxton? Some interesting looking greens there! 

Cheers,

James

[Sam Krume]

I think I should throw in the 8th at Crowborough...green & green site are truly lovely. Loads and loads of movement

[Adam Lawrence]

I agree with Sean and James about Cavendish 15, one of my favourite par threes anywhere.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for the nominations folks. I don't know some so a bit of webwork will be needed on my part. And yes Ally, include Ireland.


Atb

[Brian_Ewen]

Hazleheads 5th and 17th.

[Sean_A]

Its interesting to me at least, thats Dr Mac's first design, Alwoodley, doesn't have many, if any, of his best greens in the GB. Jeepers, give the greens more kick and you have a world beater in Alwoodley.


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Looking through some websites to find out more about some of the nominated holes indicates to me how totally rubbish some Clubs websites are. Disgraceful really. Clubs complain about lack of income and lack of members etc and yet their window to the world is awful. Very odd.


Back to the subject matter - no specific 18th hole nominations.


I recall Duff House Royal has a right evil/wonderful 18th green with a big step right across it.


Atb

[Marty Bonnar]

Looking through some websites to find out more about some of the nominated holes indicates to me how totally rubbish some Clubs websites are. Disgraceful really. Clubs complain about lack of income and lack of members etc and yet their window to the world is awful. Very odd.


Back to the subject matter - no specific 18th hole nominations.


I recall Duff House Royal has a right evil/wonderful 18th green with a big step right across it.


Atb

And there's none worse than Pitreavie's. Although there is some interest there currently with the PDF of Ken Moodie's proposals available to view.
Hope he gets paid for it. The Club doesn't have a great track record on that front...

F.

[Marty Bonnar]

The current 1st at the Eden? 

pfft... your dissing of Mr Colt is getting wearisome    you know as well as I do that there is no evidence at all that Dr Mac had any involvement on the Eden.

I eagerly await the discovery of a drawing somewhere in America proving my hypothesis...

[Jon Wiggett]

Its interesting to me at least, thats Dr Mac's first design, Alwoodley, doesn't have many, if any, of his best greens in the GB. Jeepers, give the greens more kick and you have a world beater in Alwoodley.


Ciao

Sean,


I cannot think of a single GCA who has done the number of courses that Mackenzie did who's first attempt comes even close to the quality of Alwoodley. The reason that it does not have more in there is down to the facts that Alwoodley is very understated and there are so many other Mackenzie courses even in the Yorkshire area to chose from. The genius of Mackenzie was his understanding of how the individual parts of a hole fits into the entire hole. The 12th at Augusta is an all world hole yet the putting surface on its own is at best mundane but I would suggest that making it more interesting (give it more kick as you put it) would be detrimental to the hole as a whole.


Jon

[Sean_A]

Its interesting to me at least, thats Dr Mac's first design, Alwoodley, doesn't have many, if any, of his best greens in the GB. Jeepers, give the greens more kick and you have a world beater in Alwoodley.


Ciao

Sean,


I cannot think of a single GCA who has done the number of courses that Mackenzie did who's first attempt comes even close to the quality of Alwoodley. The reason that it does not have more in there is down to the facts that Alwoodley is very understated and there are so many other Mackenzie courses even in the Yorkshire area to chose from. The genius of Mackenzie was his understanding of how the individual parts of a hole fits into the entire hole. The 12th at Augusta is an all world hole yet the putting surface on its own is at best mundane but I would suggest that making it more interesting (give it more kick as you put it) would be detrimental to the hole as a whole.


Jon

Jon


You picked a bad example in the 12th because it is a tiny green, quite penal in its design..especially for Dr Mac and on a course with more than its fair share of greens with kick.  So yes, Dr Mac was looking at the big picture...so why not at Alwoodley?  We shall never know, but its fun to ask the question.


Ciao   

[Jon Wiggett]

No Sean, I picked a great example its just you do not (choose not to) grasp it   Alwoodley, greens, course, club all quite understated, big picture, complimentary pieces, not that difficult surely. Alwoodley is a course where the whole is bigger than the sum of its parts. By messing with the greens the danger is you would ruin the big picture.


Jon

[Sean_A]

No Sean, I picked a great example its just you do not (choose not to) grasp it   Alwoodley, greens, course, club all quite understated, big picture, complimentary pieces, not that difficult surely. Alwoodley is a course where the whole is bigger than the sum of its parts. By messing with the greens the danger is you would ruin the big picture.


Jon

Jon


I am not talking about messing with the greens.  I asked why Dr Mac didn't make more interesting greens. Boughton Park, Malvern and Cavendish are understated designs with far more interesting greens...the two concepts are not mutually exclusive.


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,


I think the answer lies in looking at the big picture as already mentioned. Alwoodley was a flat, open area devoid of much if any spectacular or bold land features. The genius of Mackenzies design is that it fits perfectly in its surrounds. I have not played either of the first two you mention but Cavendish certainly has much more movement on the property and the greens reflect this.


Jon

[Mark Pearce]

Is the 15th at Seaton Carew an original MacKenzie?  If so, and green surrounds are in this conversation, then it merits consideration.

[Jonathan Davison]

Mark,
The 17th at Seaton Carew is a wonderful green and a good hole.

[Thomas Dai]

Ref the 12th at Augusta, shouldn't some comparison be with the 7th at Stoke Park/Poges?


The Seaton Carew greens mentioned look intesting from the limited photos I've found to view.


There's a curious comment on the Seaton Carew website about other links courses when Dr MacK' came a callin' in 1924........that there were only two links courses in England north of the Humber and they were Goswick and Redcar and both were in his opinion "very poor"!


When looking at MacKenzie greensites how much of the humpiness between the putting surfaces and the edge of the greens is likely to be original and how much as a result of the build up of sand splash over numerous decades?


Atb

[Duncan Cheslett]

Two-tier greens are generally known as "MacKenzie greens" in the UK, and Reddish Vale is the proud possessor of the earliest example - the 10th. It is an extremely tough 2-putt from one level to the other no matter how well you know it. 






The 13th is a magnificent green complex; the more so that the approach shot is completely blind.





Whatever you might think of the steep uphill approach on 18, the green itself is excellent, with wicked side borrows as well as the back-to-front slope.

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