North Fulton in Atlanta

[James Brown]

Just got the message below from the North Fulton Golf Course,which is apparently not retaining American Golf any longer as the manager.  Hope they don't close as a result.  Lovely course with a number of very interesting holes I played for the first time this spring.  Anyone know anytime more? 


Message:

We are writing to let you know that our lease with the City of Atlanta to operate golf courses at North Fulton, Bobby Jones, Brown's Mill, Alfred "Tup" Holmes and Candler Park will expire at the end of business on October 31, 2016.  It has been our sincere hope to come to an arrangement with the City which would permit American Golf to continue operating these courses, as we have done for the past 30 years.  Unfortunately, despite the efforts of everyone involved, we were not able to reach such an agreement.  As a result, American Golf will no longer lease or operate any of the above courses as of November 1, 2016.

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It has been our genuine pleasure to serve the golfers of the greater Atlanta area at the City owned golf courses during our 30 years of involvement in this community.  We regret that that we will not have the opportunity to continue to serve you further at these courses, but hope to see you at our other greater Atlanta courses in the future.  At this time we have no information regarding the City's plans for the operation of the golf courses after November 1st.  In the coming days, we will provide additional details regarding your Player's Club memberships, Atlanta golf passes, redemption of American Golf gift cards, our remaining American Golf clubs in this area, and other details related to this transition. In the meantime, we hope to see you out enjoying the City courses during the remainder of October, and we thank you again for your long standing support of American Golf.

[Mike_Young]

It seems the city is going to operate them on their own.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I did this deal 30 years ago.  The greens were dirt, literally.  Major crime at Brown's Mill, regular flooding at Bobby Jones, unknown if some golfers even paid at Tup Holmes.  Against the wishes of Mayor Andrew Young a "northside white women" went out on a limb and insisted the city do this deal.  I am not saying it was always perfect, but generally a MAJOR improvement for the golfers of Atlanta.  North Fulton peaked at 80,000 rounds so something right must have been happening.  This is typical for a city to look at the success and say we should be able to run a business ourselves.  It looks easy, plus more jobs for the city to create.  It will work for about 2 years and then watch it collapse.  Current administration has no idea what it was like under their stewardship.

[John_Cullum]

The opportunities for graft are much greater if they run it themselves. That's really what this is about. The city of Atlanta has turned away very lucrative offers from airport management firms because it's their own big golden goose. They're just expanding the operation.

[SB]

The City of Atlanta is taking over the management, but not because of graft.  There were four golf courses in the lease to American Golf - North Fulton aka Chastain, Bobby Jones, Browns Mill, and Tup Holmes.  The first two are profitable and the second two are not, to varying degrees.  American Golf's lease was over so the city went out to RFP to get a new lease deal.  But, with the City selling (giving?) Bobby Jones to the State of GA in conjunction with some other real estate transaction, the overall package wasn't profitable enough to get an acceptable offer, in part because they all need some serious capital investment.  So, the city is taking it back in house, which was the only solution.  In the future, they may outsource it under a management contract at some point, but that wasn't part of the RFP.  The city also has two other nine hole golf courses - Candler Park and John A White (a First Tee facility), that also lose money.  It will be interesting to see what happens overall since they now have 5 golf courses and only one makes money, even under private management.  When they take it over, it will probably lose more, and the courses need some serious capital investment.  The reality is that 2 courses need to be turned into a park or something else, but they can't really do that until they take them all over.

[Mike_Young]

...seems like one group which was put together with a management company and a few guys who wanted to create a trust for the city courses felt they had it in the bag but did not pan out....word today is that AgPro is now somehow involved in future operations.  AgPro is the company that purchased John Deere Landscapes etc...will be interesting..I think the last deal required a minority partner and would expect the same next time...

[Blake Conant]

I visited Candler Park this summer and thought it had lots of potential in a well-established and increasingly popular neighborhood.  There's some good, quirky architecture on relatively severe land, a baseline of consistent golfers, a great location, and an awesome little clubhouse.


The drainage issue near 7 tee was concerning, but there's potential for some really creative solutions.  Trees and turf health need addressing, but overall it's got good bones.  Would be a shame to see it fall into disrepair

[Rees Milikin]

I visited Candler Park this summer and thought it had lots of potential in a well-established and increasingly popular neighborhood.  There's some good, quirky architecture on relatively severe land, a baseline of consistent golfers, a great location, and an awesome little clubhouse.


The drainage issue near 7 tee was concerning, but there's potential for some really creative solutions.  Trees and turf health need addressing, but overall it's got good bones.  Would be a shame to see it fall into disrepair

It would be a damn shame to lose Candler Park.

[Chris Cupit]

As a life long Atlantan I am puzzled by the "love" for Candler Park.  I played it last about 11 months ago and it is not good golf.  Just because it is public and accessible doesn't make it good.  There is a FAR greater need for ball parks for kids or even passive green space for everyone.  Why should taxpayers subsidize golf for a tiny, tiny percentage of its population?  Especially crappy golf.

[Rees Milikin]

As a life long Atlantan I am puzzled by the "love" for Candler Park.  I played it last about 11 months ago and it is not good golf.  Just because it is public and accessible doesn't make it good.  There is a FAR greater need for ball parks for kids or even passive green space for everyone.  Why should taxpayers subsidize golf for a tiny, tiny percentage of its population?  Especially crappy golf.

Where should the public in that area play golf after work?  We all know traffic in and around that area sucks and joining East Lake or Druid Hills is a tall order.  Candler Park serves a purpose and it doesn't have to be an awesome golf course to serve it.  I have played countless rounds there and known many people who started or continued playing b/c of that course.  That is why it would be a damn shame to lose the course.  I used to live in L5P and finding a place to shoot hoops, play kickball, etc is pretty easy to find close to that area, a public golf course, not so much.

[Chris Cupit]

I will grant that Candler Park serves a purpose for you--it is convenient.   But, I do think kids need a place where they can walk and enjoy outdoor activities more than middle aged white men need convenient access to cheap, taxpayer subsidized golf.  But I do understand it is nice to have some golf, any golf I guess,  nearby and I do appreciate that golf doesn't have to be "good" to serve the purpose of being fun to play, good exercise...


I do think to say Candler Park has "good bones", is "good, quirky architecture" and has "lots of potential" is just silly.  I'll give you it's cheap and convenient but I'd call BS on the other adjectives.  To rally support for saving it for any architectural reason or interest would be a lie.

[Daniel Jones]

I first played Candler Park nearly 20 years ago with a half dozen non-matching clubs that I rented from the "pro shop." It was one of the most memorable afternoons of golf I've ever experienced. Why? I'm not entirely sure.. But I've made a point to go back many times since and hope to do so for years to come. Is it some outstanding architectural gem? Nah.. But it sure is fun.

[Rees Milikin]

I will grant that Candler Park serves a purpose for you--it is convenient.   But, I do think kids need a place where they can walk and enjoy outdoor activities more than middle aged white men need convenient access to cheap, taxpayer subsidized golf.  But I do understand it is nice to have some golf, any golf I guess,  nearby and I do appreciate that golf doesn't have to be "good" to serve the purpose of being fun to play, good exercise...


I do think to say Candler Park has "good bones", is "good, quirky architecture" and has "lots of potential" is just silly.  I'll give you it's cheap and convenient but I'd call BS on the other adjectives.  To rally support for saving it for any architectural reason or interest would be a lie.

Have you spent much time watching who plays there?  Unless things have drastically changed since I moved, the middle aged white guy isn't the majority of people playing.  Also, I didn't say architectural interest had anything to do with saving this place, nor do I think it matters.

I guess they could turn it into another park, but then the majority of places people would have to play are the northern suburbs that are filled with nothing but middle aged white guys (aka 99.99999999% of GCA).

[Mike Dasher]

I first played Candler Park 55 years ago with a JC Higgens (Sears & Roebuck sporting goods line) junior set.

I consider it the birthplace of golf.

As far as bones go, the hole lengths back then would potentially allow for every club in the bag to be played in a nine hole round then and today. I believe it would be a shame to lose it.

[Blake Conant]

2, 3, 7 are good holes that could be improved with tree removal.  5 and 6 could be improved by clearing trees and adding more interest around the green.  You could work with the blind tee shot on 8 and the hard right to left pitch on 4.  If you don't see good bones and potential for a good 9-hole course on that piece of land then we'll just agree to disagree.

I'm not arguing for it to be saved because of it's architecture, but rather for the benefit it provides to the community and the history it has.  If it continues to exist, it will be for those reasons.  However, there's no reason to think you'd have to blow the place up or drastically change the routing to make it into a fine 9-hole golf course. 

[Chris Cupit]

My points re: Candler Park:


1.  It is a money losing 9 hole track that would require a significant capital infusion to improve (that's not going to happen) and needs significant tree removal (also not going to happen).   
2.  Assuming you could get approval for both of the above you still need to add additional "interest" around the greens (most likely with some simple bunkering) that requires on going additional maintenance.  I can hear it now--no bunkers but interesting, minimalist shaping 
3.  Increased maintenance budget to provide basic conditions.  Without proper maintenance of those type of areas mentioned above (which won't happen) you just have crappy looking and playing "quirk".
3.  Hole 2 is OK, 3 is the best out there and while 5,6,7 would be improved by tree removal, see #1 above.
4.  Today the course is best described as a pitch and putt for anyone other than beginners or juniors.  Don't get me wrong, we need courses like this but there are also safety issues all around the perimeter of the course given the proximity to roads, houses, cars and walkers and numerous blind shots as well.


I have been in the golf business for a long time and have remodeled an 18 hole course and have priced out numerous small improvements over the years and I have a pretty good handle on what the real cost of those types of changes are as well as the perpetual consequences of those "improvements".  What experience do any of you have exposing and bringing to life "good bones"?  And sorry to be argumentative but what do you think are the "good bones" at Candler Park?  It is extremely pitched and hilly, hemmed in on all sides with overgrown trees and floodplain.  There is not a single green or green site that is interesting or unusual.  I have no doubt a professional architect could do wonders compared to what is there now and create a fun, short 9 hole course but it would cost far more money than the city is willing to spend.  They can't spend the money Candler park needs and ignore the other city courses.  So, to renovate Candler Park means taking on ALL the other courses too lest one be accused of fixing up the one in the rich, white area only.


I also was a part time commissioner of a start up city in Fulton county and can assure you there is zero political will to invest more money in what is considered a white privileged game especially when you have genuine needs that are considered far more pressing. 
My experience playing down there was limited but facts do not matter in this case--it is perception in a city whose leadership could not possibly care less about the plight of golfers. 

I will grant you this--in an ideal world Atlanta could afford to maintain this course for a more diverse set of golfers.  But where then is the outcry of support for Browns Mill and Tup Holmes?  I would argue Tup Holmes has far more potential and would much rather see the dollars saved by eliminating a golf course at Candler Park go into a far more historic and important course at Tup Holmes.  Candler Park is in the middle of one of the wealthiest (and whitest) areas of Atlanta whereas Tup Holmes is not.  This feeds the perception that "white golfers"  are self serving and interested more in convenient golf for themselves versus affordable golf for everyone throughout the city.

It is prime real estate being wasted on a tiny golfing population that will not or cannot support it now.  And you want hundreds of thousands (and that is what it would take) invested up front on this money pit?  I am beginning to understand why the public at large has such disdain for golfers!

[Chris Cupit]

I guess they could turn it into another park, but then the majority of places people would have to play are the northern suburbs that are filled with nothing but middle aged white guys (aka 99.99999999% of GCA).

Within one year of opening our doors in 1973, we had minority Members--so at least one of those northern suburb clubs wasn't and isn't 99.99999 "white" 


I am quite certain I have now and have always had the most diverse club membership in the northern suburbs     Very proud of the fact that all we have ever cared about is if you loved golf and could pay your bill 

[Mike Dasher]

2, 3, 7 are good holes that could be improved with tree removal.  5 and 6 could be improved by clearing trees and adding more interest around the green.  You could work with the blind tee shot on 8 and the hard right to left pitch on 4.  If you don't see good bones and potential for a good 9-hole course on that piece of land then we'll just agree to disagree.

I'm not arguing for it to be saved because of it's architecture, but rather for the benefit it provides to the community and the history it has.  If it continues to exist, it will be for those reasons.  However, there's no reason to think you'd have to blow the place up or drastically change the routing to make it into a fine 9-hole golf course.

Fifty years ago, four was close to 200 yards and the longest of the par threes, which went a long way to getting to my every club in the bag comment.  I believe it was shortened in the seventies to make room for a swing set.  Irrigation was a hose bib at each green and the only fertilizer ever applied was to the greens every now and then.  Ten by Ten foot dirt tee boxes and no sand bunkers.  Weekends and holidays there would be a two hour wait to play   Times change, CP was left behind.

[Chris Cupit]

That is sad and I wish public golf in Atlanta could be saved at ALL the courses.  It is a case of triage now and I am afraid I would let CP go and try and save the others.

[Mike_Young]

2, 3, 7 are good holes that could be improved with tree removal.  5 and 6 could be improved by clearing trees and adding more interest around the green.  You could work with the blind tee shot on 8 and the hard right to left pitch on 4.  If you don't see good bones and potential for a good 9-hole course on that piece of land then we'll just agree to disagree.

I'm not arguing for it to be saved because of it's architecture, but rather for the benefit it provides to the community and the history it has.  If it continues to exist, it will be for those reasons.  However, there's no reason to think you'd have to blow the place up or drastically change the routing to make it into a fine 9-hole golf course.

Mike,
Wasn't Chicken Yates the golf pro there 55 years ago?

Fifty years ago, four was close to 200 yards and the longest of the par threes, which went a long way to getting to my every club in the bag comment.  I believe it was shortened in the seventies to make room for a swing set.  Irrigation was a hose bib at each green and the only fertilizer ever applied was to the greens every now and then.  Ten by Ten foot dirt tee boxes and no sand bunkers.  Weekends and holidays there would be a two hour wait to play   Times change, CP was left behind.

[Joe Hellrung]

Not sure if it is true or not, but when I lived near Candler Park one of my neighbors used to tell of a homeless guy that camped out in the woods and would sell you back your ball for a dollar if you hit it anywhere near him.  Made for a fun story, if not an interesting course hazard. 

[Bill Gayne]

I doubt I would be playing golf today if it wasn't for access to North Fulton when I took up the game.

[Chris Cupit]

I think North Fulton (Chastain), Bobby Jones and Tup Holmes are all worth investing in and saving.  I know nothing of Brown's Mill and obviously I am not a huge fan of Candler Park as a golf course. 


Let me rephrase--I am not a fan of Candler Park staying a golf course if the only way it is possible is with taxpayer support. 

[SB]

I am quite certain I have now and have always had the most diverse club membership in the northern suburbs     Very proud of the fact that all we have ever cared about is if you loved golf and could pay your bill 

I might try to give you a run for your money on most diverse membership on the northside.   


Brown's Mill is probably the best layout of the Atlanta munis.  It's been a while since I've played, but I've heard it's in decent shape. 


I think you may be way low on your estimate of capital improvements at Candler Park.  The other reason that Candler Park is not needed is that Charlie Yates is only 2 miles away. 

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I am quite certain I have now and have always had the most diverse club membership in the northern suburbs     Very proud of the fact that all we have ever cared about is if you loved golf and could pay your bill 

I might try to give you a run for your money on most diverse membership on the northside.   


Brown's Mill is probably the best layout of the Atlanta munis.  It's been a while since I've played, but I've heard it's in decent shape. 


I think you may be way low on your estimate of capital improvements at Candler Park.  The other reason that Candler Park is not needed is that Charlie Yates is only 2 miles away.

Chandler Egan's North Fulton has the most character of the munis in Atlanta.  Having said that an enterprising person/group could do wonders at Brown's Mill.  It needs some work, new clubhouse, some drainage repair, but it is a quick shot off the interstate, nice design and wide open.  It could be a mini Eastlake redo with someone enterprising enough to obtain some government grants and turned into(IMHO) one of the better courses in Atlanta.  As a rule George Cobb did some solid work.  It is a bit bland, but the potential is there.  Naturally in this golf climate there is some risk, but it would be less risky than some other golf projects in the area like for example Tup Holmes.