[David Davis]

If I think of quirk the poster children and some of the most well known are usually Prestwick, North Berwick and Cruden Bay.


Tim of course talks above about North Berwick. I would say that the members of these clubs should be among the happiest and are definitely among the most fortunate golf club members in the world.


I could never tire of playing these courses even if I played 2x day from now till I died.


if quirk meant something like duck/pig/hippo shaped bunkers or water hazards then I might get irritated by it on the first play.


Classic quirk for me is one of the best experiences in golf, add that to great classic architecture then I'm a very happy camper, throw in the varied wind conditions and links turf and it would be worth moving there permanently.

[Tim Gallant]

I wish it was hyperbole! The green I am referring to is the 16th at North Berwick. I love it as a green, I love it for its quirk, and 9/10 I do get a thrill watching weather my ball will finish on the green, or whether or not I will have a crazy putt. However, on the occasion I have mentioned previously, the pin was in the back right part of the green (the toughest pin location), which meant that over the green was dead. I have played the hole enough times to know that short is the miss, but caught a flyer out of the rough and the ball missed hitting into the bank of the swale by mere inches. Instead of having a 5 foot putt, I was over the green, and left with a putt that is near impossible to get close. This is the same green that Mickelson drove pin high in 1 and took a 6. I hit a great first putt that teetered on the edge of the top of the bank before rolling back down the slope. Same for my 5th shot. The 6th made it up, but 10 feet by and I missed the come-back.

Tim, I share your pain having fallen victim to the 16th green quirk often enough myself - but is it really so different to, say, the Postage Stamp at Troon where missing the perfect spot by 2ft can also lead pretty quickly to a 6 even for the best of players. Or the Road Hole where being a little off perfect can be disastrous.


I now think surviving the 16th with a card in hand is about accepting that for me the back pin position is not accessible from 100 yards and out and instead trying to ensure one misses pin-high left. The putt up the bank from there is quite benign, getting up & down is realistic and a bogey should be the worst that happens.

Of course such tantric enlightenment is easy to spout at the keyboard and is no warranty on future shot selection. I did make par there  yesterday with the pin at the back by this method - albeit aided by a miraculous bounce out of the burn ! 

Interesting analogy which had me thinking about this at lunch. I suppose the difference for me is that at the Postage Stamp, as an 11 handicap, I can hit a good shot, and be rewarded by being on the green. Having played the 16th roughly 100 times, I can genuinely say I have only seen one ball stay on the back tier from an approach shot of greater than 50 yards (not just from me, but playing partners as well). To me, there is no reward for a risk of trying to play to the pin, and it is only chance if you get the right bounce off the swale. The way that green is built is 'quirky' to me.


As mentioned, I love the hole, and love the green, and I wouldn't change a thing about it. But the question in the OP was about how often you could play the same quirky course before tedious. I contend that for fun / match play, it is brilliant. For stroke play, I think it could wear on players quickly. Not singling out NB though, I would contend the same thing for Prestwick, and that is one of my favourite courses in GB&I.


Easy solution: I need to stop playing stroke play

[Ian Galbraith]

.... Having played the 16th roughly 100 times, I can genuinely say I have only seen one ball stay on the back tier from an approach shot of greater than 50 yards (not just from me, but playing partners as well). To me, there is no reward for a risk of trying to play to the pin, and it is only chance if you get the right bounce off the swale. The way that green is built is 'quirky' to me.

Tim, I can't resist paraphrasing a quote from Einstein:


"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."


Maybe going at the pin is not the right play for us 11 handicappers when the pin is on the back tier. Par is much more likely with a different strategy. The course leaves the choice up to us!

[Norbert P]

  I was lucky enough to play Tot Hill Farm Golf Course last month but unfortunate to have only played it once.  Probably the craziest golf course I've ever played, and I say that with utmost appreciation for what the late great Mike Strantz and his crew built there in the hills of North Carolina.


http://www.tothillfarm.com/


How many times could I play it before getting bored or annoyed by it?  That's an unquantifiable answer. But once is surely not giving it justice. For one thing, walking it would kill Reinhold Messner.  For another, my fascination is with how Strantz made that land work for golf.  Totally impressed by it's educational impact. I've walked a few undeveloped golf sites and have thought that some were near impossible to build on but this layout opened my eyes. 
It's a tough course for the tee-shot challenged but clubbing down doesn't bother me. Plenty of doglegs and blind shots and an insane green or three but quite a fun trip through a golf wonderland.




 

[George Pazin]

Having played the 16th roughly 100 times, I can genuinely say I have only seen one ball stay on the back tier from an approach shot of greater than 50 yards (not just from me, but playing partners as well). To me, there is no reward for a risk of trying to play to the pin, and it is only chance if you get the right bounce off the swale. The way that green is built is 'quirky' to me.

So why are you or anyone else trying to play at that pin? Why not adopt the strategy of Ian? He's right, what you are doing fits Einstein's definition...

[Tim Gallant]

Having played the 16th roughly 100 times, I can genuinely say I have only seen one ball stay on the back tier from an approach shot of greater than 50 yards (not just from me, but playing partners as well). To me, there is no reward for a risk of trying to play to the pin, and it is only chance if you get the right bounce off the swale. The way that green is built is 'quirky' to me.

So why are you or anyone else trying to play at that pin? Why not adopt the strategy of Ian? He's right, what you are doing fits Einstein's definition...

Should clarify, I have not played to the pin 100 times, just that in 100 plays, I have seen one ball end up on the top tier.


George & Ian, if that is the case, and it is insanity to play at the pin, doesn't that mean the hole with that pin location is one-dimensional and therefore not interesting? Has the quirk taken away options and thus resulted in a putting competition - i.e. who can get it closest from 10 yards off the green on the left? If that is indeed the case, I would argue that after a number of plays in a stroke-play competition, it would become uninteresting because you already know how you are going to play the hole regardless of where the wind is blowing, etc.


That is looking at it in isolation, and I accept that by changing the pin, and with the wind variation, the hole can play as diverse as any on the course - from a straight-forwardish 4, to a tough 5.

[David McIntosh]

Tim,

I've seen a few balls end up on the back portion of the 16th green but almost all of those instances were from lower handicappers with the ability to hit a high ball which lands softly/with some spin - a shot that isn't in my locker! This is undoubtedly an easier shot to execute than the low running approach I usually try to knock in there due to the increased number of variables at play with the latter option (i.e. where the approach lands, what the first bounce is like, how much check/release the ball gets) which makes it far harder to repeat on a regular basis.

I happen to agree with you that, given the odds, it is insanity for players of our ability to go at that back pin but I don't think that makes the hole uninteresting. Instead it's all about the execution of the couple of shots to get yourself to that position left and/or short of the green to leave the easiest putt up the slope to make par - no mean feat when the wind is up, in either direction but for completely different reasons. This type of golf, where the player has to pull off two solid shots with little room for error, is not representative of the quirkiness NB is typically renowned for (where there are often multiple ways to play holes and still make a decent score) and possibly shares more traits with sterner 'tests' like Muirfield or Carnoustie but nonetheless presents a challenge for the golfer to rise to. This kind of challenge isn't really evident throughout the rest of the course but it's not a bad thing to have one hole like this - were all 18 similarly demanding then I'm sure it would be a different story!

Don't get me wrong, it's clearly a better hole for match play than stroke play, as you've already pointed out, but part of the challenge in playing the 16th during stroke play is maintaining the discipline to play to the area which gives the best chance of par (and almost as important, limiting the damage to bogey) rather than going for the high tariff shot and risk running up double or worse. However, as Ian said in one of his earlier posts, doing this is easier said than done and on the rare occasions I make 4 on the 16th they are seldom straight-forward pars.

[Ian Galbraith]

Tim, I don't think the back pin makes it one-dimensional at all even if you are choosing the 'sensible miss' option of pin-high left or in the swale which is also ok. Missing pin high left is not at all an easy shot. Somebody in the mists of time has been smart enough to lay two bunkers there and the rough and bushes are growing in from the left so even the bail out shot is not easy. In particular, if you have had to lay up in front of the burn into the wind (already a risk-reward decision made), it's a smallish target to hit.

The second shot on 16 always demands careful attention and balancing risks no matter where your drive finishes.If you drive down the left side of the fairway those bunkers are really in play, if you drive  on the right, less so, but you have a longer shot in and risk getting embroiled with  the humps and bumps of the front section of the green from which you can end up anywhere. Which do you choose ?

The nervousness never stops until the ball is in the hole and the rush of relief when you manage a par makes the hole special.

Don't get me wrong as often as not I walk off 16 feeling aggrieved, especially if a good card has just been wrecked by my own hubris.

We shall have to discuss this in detail over a malt or two the next time you're at the house.

I think the fact that three course members are still arguing over a particular green is testament to the power of  'quirk' to sustain interest!

[PCCraig]

Thomas,

I play my golf at what almost everyone would call a quirky golf course. I like quirk, so it fits my eye. I think blind shots, uneven lies, etc. makes playing the same golf course over and over much more interesting. Playing a straightforward golf course would get boring much quicker I would have to believe.

Pat, do you think playing a quirky course so often has made you enjoy quirk even more?  Or did you have a strong taste for it even before you started play T&CC regularly? 

I play quirky courses sparingly, so when I do I am usually pretty excited for it.  I'm not sure if playing one regularly would make me love it even more or push me to crave a more traditional experience more often.

I have always enjoyed quirky golf courses, but playing everyday on a fairly extreme example has certainly raised my "tolerance" for quirk. Uneven lies, blind shots, bounces, unseen hazards, etc. don't "bother" me quite like they used to, as a player.


If anything, more traditional "parkland" golf courses, more flat, straightaway, etc. tend to bore me a bit more?

[Thomas Dai]

If anything, more traditional "parkland" golf courses, more flat, straightaway, etc. tend to bore me a bit more?

Difficult to disagree with PCC here. The polar opposite of quirk becoming tedious and boring but equally apt. Familiarity breeding contempt, variety is the spice of live and all that.


Is quirk more acceptable over 9-holes than 18-holes?


Atb

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