[Sean Ogle]

Tom,


No problem at all. I would agree that I believe it's in the top 500, but definitely not in the top 100.


I've played 30 of the top 100 on the Golf Magazine 2015 list and 34 I believe of the top 100 in America - so enough to have a general sense of the quality we're talking about here.


I do think there's a difference between enjoyment of a course and architectural quality of a course. For instance I love say, Tobacco Road, but I would never expect anyone to talk about it among the best courses in the world. I've found that often the courses I enjoy the most aren't necessarily the ones that are top 100.


I enjoyed Ayodhya as a course more than Royal Troon, and perhaps Olympic Club, and in many ways do think it is a better course. Olympic, I'm just not sure I'm a good enough golfer to be able to truly look at that routing as enjoyable, and Royal Troon I thought was 6 boring holes, followed by 6 very good holes, followed by 6 more boring holes. That's just my opinion though.


What I liked about Ayodhya were the strategic options on many of the holes. The 8th as mentioned before being a good example. The third was another one. I had 225 over water to the green, or I could layup. The closer the layup the better angle to the green, but the narrower the fairway became, and a bunker on the right came into play. I liked the routing of Ayodhya with holes facing multiple directions, and with a nice variety of shots. The greens had undulation, yet in spots were subtle enough to force me to think. I also learned quickly it mattered where I put my drive, in relation to the angle of approach I'd take into the green.


All of those things I find it to have in common with some of the best courses in the world.

[David Davis]

Tom...the only time I think of golf architecture as a form of art is when I see a framed pretty photo of Pebble or Pacific Dunes hanging on a wall. Otherwise I think of golf architecture as the design and construction of a 3D playing field that provides for different physical strategies and visuals, combined with an understanding of how these stimuli affect the emotions/needs of the people who will be playing.

Paul:


I think this was the wrong thread for that discussion, but ... if you are constructing something in 3D that affects the emotions of the people playing, that is a form of art.  It's functional art, yes, but it's still art.


My wife and kids don't really play golf or care much about it, but when I take them to a golf course, they seem to have a pretty good innate sense for whether it's any good or not, irrespective of whether the bunkers are in the right place strategically.  If it looks interesting, it probably is.

Don't let Paul's typing fool you... if he walks like and artist, thinks like an artist and talks like an artist... he's likely a golf course designer living in Cabo.

Greg, nice post! When I first met Paul last week it was a super hot 95 deg day, he rode up on a 4 wheeler right as I was teeing off on the par 3, 5th at Diamante Dunes. He was dressed like Indiana Jones to protect himself from the heat. You know what they say about first impressions. To me he's the Indiana Jones of GCA. Fits perfectly with those movies, he's down there in the desert searching for buried treasure or uncovering it. Glad I sunk my birdie as Paul thinks I can putt now. There are worse first impression to leave behind. He's definitely an artist and a perfectionist and lucky enough to have had the opportunity to treat Diamante as an evolving work in progress.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,


No problem at all. I would agree that I believe it's in the top 500, but definitely not in the top 100.


I've played 30 of the top 100 on the Golf Magazine 2015 list and 34 I believe of the top 100 in America - so enough to have a general sense of the quality we're talking about here.


I do think there's a difference between enjoyment of a course and architectural quality of a course. For instance I love say, Tobacco Road, but I would never expect anyone to talk about it among the best courses in the world. I've found that often the courses I enjoy the most aren't necessarily the ones that are top 100.


I enjoyed Ayodhya as a course more than Royal Troon, and perhaps Olympic Club, and in many ways do think it is a better course. Olympic, I'm just not sure I'm a good enough golfer to be able to truly look at that routing as enjoyable, and Royal Troon I thought was 6 boring holes, followed by 6 very good holes, followed by 6 more boring holes. That's just my opinion though.


What I liked about Ayodhya were the strategic options on many of the holes. The 8th as mentioned before being a good example. The third was another one. I had 225 over water to the green, or I could layup. The closer the layup the better angle to the green, but the narrower the fairway became, and a bunker on the right came into play. I liked the routing of Ayodhya with holes facing multiple directions, and with a nice variety of shots. The greens had undulation, yet in spots were subtle enough to force me to think. I also learned quickly it mattered where I put my drive, in relation to the angle of approach I'd take into the green.


All of those things I find it to have in common with some of the best courses in the world.

Review of the year!!! A refreshing brave outlook without the biases so often found in the people on a crusade to discredit Golf Digest. 

[Greg Tallman]

Tom...the only time I think of golf architecture as a form of art is when I see a framed pretty photo of Pebble or Pacific Dunes hanging on a wall. Otherwise I think of golf architecture as the design and construction of a 3D playing field that provides for different physical strategies and visuals, combined with an understanding of how these stimuli affect the emotions/needs of the people who will be playing.

Paul:


I think this was the wrong thread for that discussion, but ... if you are constructing something in 3D that affects the emotions of the people playing, that is a form of art.  It's functional art, yes, but it's still art.


My wife and kids don't really play golf or care much about it, but when I take them to a golf course, they seem to have a pretty good innate sense for whether it's any good or not, irrespective of whether the bunkers are in the right place strategically.  If it looks interesting, it probably is.

Don't let Paul's typing fool you... if he walks like and artist, thinks like an artist and talks like an artist... he's likely a golf course designer living in Cabo.

Greg, nice post! When I first met Paul last week it was a super hot 95 deg day, he rode up on a 4 wheeler right as I was teeing off on the par 3, 5th at Diamante Dunes. He was dressed like Indiana Jones to protect himself from the heat. You know what they say about first impressions. To me he's the Indiana Jones of GCA. Fits perfectly with those movies, he's down there in the desert searching for buried treasure or uncovering it. Glad I sunk my birdie as Paul thinks I can putt now. There are worse first impression to leave behind. He's definitely an artist and a perfectionist and lucky enough to have had the opportunity to treat Diamante as an evolving work in progress.

How do you work "birdie" into every Cabo related post?

By the way, you were simply a night early for the "bizarro world" I was preparing you for. Seems the birthday "event" was scheduled from Friday afternoon through early Monday morning. You just got the warm up portion.  Don't forget that when you return JP can hook you up with cars, yachts... whatever you need 

[paul cowley]

Tom...the only time I think of golf architecture as a form of art is when I see a framed pretty photo of Pebble or Pacific Dunes hanging on a wall. Otherwise I think of golf architecture as the design and construction of a 3D playing field that provides for different physical strategies and visuals, combined with an understanding of how these stimuli affect the emotions/needs of the people who will be playing.

Paul:


I think this was the wrong thread for that discussion, but ... if you are constructing something in 3D that affects the emotions of the people playing, that is a form of art.  It's functional art, yes, but it's still art.


My wife and kids don't really play golf or care much about it, but when I take them to a golf course, they seem to have a pretty good innate sense for whether it's any good or not, irrespective of whether the bunkers are in the right place strategically.  If it looks interesting, it probably is.

Tom...I agree, the term functional art works for me, but then again I'm very much a form follows functioneer. I ask you, at the risk of taking this thread even further off tack...can you think a course (or anything for that matter) where they really nailed the function, but the form was lacking?

[Greg Tallman]

Tom...the only time I think of golf architecture as a form of art is when I see a framed pretty photo of Pebble or Pacific Dunes hanging on a wall. Otherwise I think of golf architecture as the design and construction of a 3D playing field that provides for different physical strategies and visuals, combined with an understanding of how these stimuli affect the emotions/needs of the people who will be playing.

Paul:


I think this was the wrong thread for that discussion, but ... if you are constructing something in 3D that affects the emotions of the people playing, that is a form of art.  It's functional art, yes, but it's still art.


My wife and kids don't really play golf or care much about it, but when I take them to a golf course, they seem to have a pretty good innate sense for whether it's any good or not, irrespective of whether the bunkers are in the right place strategically.  If it looks interesting, it probably is.

Tom...I agree, the term functional art works for me, but then again I'm very much a form follows functioneer. I ask you, at the risk of taking this thread even further off tack...can you think a course (or anything for that matter) where they really nailed the function, but the form was lacking?

Your social interaction at Sammy G's?

[Tom_Doak]

Review of the year!!! A refreshing brave outlook without the biases so often found in the people on a crusade to discredit Golf Digest.

Nice attempt at deflection!  Your brother-in-law doesn't work for GOLF DIGEST.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom...I agree, the term functional art works for me, but then again I'm very much a form follows functioneer. I ask you, at the risk of taking this thread even further off tack...can you think a course (or anything for that matter) where they really nailed the function, but the form was lacking?

Paul:


That's a good question, I will ponder it a bit.  My first reaction was to think of Royal Troon, because Sean Ogle mentioned it above, trying to bring this thread back on topic.  Or Olympic, for that matter.  Both are pretty much penal designs, and in that respect I can't say that I think they "nailed the function."   But I think the reason they got to be how they are is entirely due to people trying to think functionally about golf crime and punishment, instead of thinking about the bigger picture.

[John Kavanaugh]

Review of the year!!! A refreshing brave outlook without the biases so often found in the people on a crusade to discredit Golf Digest.

Nice attempt at deflection!  Your brother-in-law doesn't work for GOLF DIGEST.

And whose judgement is beyond reproach for no reason more forthcoming than the fact he never asked me to be a rater.

[David Davis]

How do you work "birdie" into every Cabo related post?

By the way, you were simply a night early for the "bizarro world" I was preparing you for. Seems the birthday "event" was scheduled from Friday afternoon through early Monday morning. You just got the warm up portion.  Don't forget that when you return JP can hook you up with cars, yachts... whatever you need 

Greg,


It's supposed to be subliminal messaging. I figure if I say it enough it might actually happen, or perhaps I'll just start growing feathers...(make birdies or become one). Actually that was one time I had an eye witness. Mr. Jones was there. 


Next time I'll return with the G650 and then I'll need the yacht so I can anchor off the cost of Cabo Del Sol and just come in for the bizarro world stuff and to pick up more caviar. Bullet proof Escalade will also be handy. JP is the man.

[Greg Tallman]

How do you work "birdie" into every Cabo related post?

By the way, you were simply a night early for the "bizarro world" I was preparing you for. Seems the birthday "event" was scheduled from Friday afternoon through early Monday morning. You just got the warm up portion.  Don't forget that when you return JP can hook you up with cars, yachts... whatever you need 

Greg,


It's supposed to be subliminal messaging. I figure if I say it enough it might actually happen, or perhaps I'll just start growing feathers...(make birdies or become one). Actually that was one time I had an eye witness. Mr. Jones was there. 


Next time I'll return with the G650 and then I'll need the yacht so I can anchor off the cost of Cabo Del Sol and just come in for the bizarro world stuff and to pick up more caviar. Bullet proof Escalade will also be handy. JP is the man.

Oh my, I'll simply say your wife's name is perfect and her ability to endure JP makes me wonder if her middle name is Polite.

My other buddy had the better line though... "Patience? I've been looking for you my entire life. Do you have a sister named Modesty?"

Did you birdie hole #5 in any other rounds or is that just a Cabo thing?

[George Pazin]

And whose judgement is beyond reproach for no reason more forthcoming than the fact he never asked me to be a rater.

Maybe he simply realized one number couldn't influence the final number that much.


Or maybe he is really that ethical.


We'll never know.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Review of the year!!! A refreshing brave outlook without the biases so often found in the people on a crusade to discredit Golf Digest.

JK
Have you been to this course? Or looked at it on Google Earth?
Please explain how the third hole is strategic and not penal?
https://goo.gl/maps/S8RPYFgiwgA2
Cheers
Mike

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