Carnoustie vrs Royal County Down - a tough links comparison

[Thomas Dai]

Carnoustie's Championship course is usually regarded as the toughest links challenge in GB and RCD is a pretty tough links challenge as well.

Recently we've had a couple of course comparison play-offs, for example Painswick vrs Cleeve Cloud vrs Minch' Old, and some lively threads resulted.

So what is the outcome if we compare the Champioship course at Carnoustie with the Championship course at Royal County Down? Well, let's give it a go. Yardages are the Men's yardages from the front and most rearward tees.

1st hole

Carnoustie - par-4 390-410 yds
RCD - par-5 500-540

Carnousties 1st is usually against the prevailing wind whereas RCD's 1st is usually downwind. Carnoustie also has the burn down the left and the sunken green. RCD has the beach to the right and the sandy hill to the left.Straight out of the box, first shot of the day, even after a warm-up, I would say that Carnoustie's 1st tee shot is the harder and that RCD's 1st is the more straightforward hole.

Result - Carnoustie wins the hole. Carnoustie is 1 up.

2nd hole

Carnoustie  - par-4 410-470 yds
RCD - 390-440 yds

The 2nd at Carnoustie seems to go on forever and ever, doglegging slightly to the right. There's a nasty in-your-face bunker in the centre of the fairway to keep you interested off the tee and it's usually into a right-to-left wind. RCD's 2nd is again downwind and whilst there are fairway bunkers and the fairway narrows to a point containing a deep bunker 40 yds short of the green there is quite a bit of space over the bunker. Although RCD's 2nd green has a fall-away to the right Carnoustie's 2nd green is very long and very thin.

Result - Carnoustie wins the hole. Carnoustie is 2 up.

3rd hole

Carnoustie - par-4 350-400 yds
RCD - par-4 460-480 yds

Carnousties 3rd might seem a pick-up hole on the card but it's an awkward, rascally hole, wind normally behind and from the left, doglegging right and with the burn along the left side and in front. The green has several nasty slopes and is narrow at the front. The 3rd at RCD is long and straight, is usually downwind, has bunkers seemingly everywhere and a flattish green. Surprisingly, there's not much in it imo as Carnoustie's 3rd is quite easy to make a complete and utter total mess of whereas RCD's 3rd if played conservatively should be a reasonably easy bogey. Even switching the wind around doesn't really change things much. It's surprisingly, controversially maybe, close but I think it's got to go to RCD, but only just.

RCD wins the hole. Carnoustie back to only 1 up.

4th hole

Carnoustie - par-4 360-410 yds
RCD - par-3 200-230

Carnoustie 4th doglegs right to an end-on-end double green with a ditch along the left side and the wind usually from the right. RCD's 4th plays back into the wind and is probably one of the most photographed holes on the planet. It is probably also one of the greatest and most challenging par-3's on the planet. Easy choice really.

RCD wins the hole. Match back to all square.

More later.

atb

[Thomas Dai]

Installment part II

5th hole

Carnoustie - par-4  370-410 yds
RCD  - par-4 400-440 yds

Two similar-ish holes. Carnoustie's 5th is a fairly straightforward par-4 with a crossing ditch and an awkward raised rear section of the green. RCD's 5th is a strong hole with plenty of trouble to be avoided that takes the biscuit as it usually plays back into the wind rather than downwind, which Carnoustie's 5th does.

Result - RCD wins the hole. RCD 1up.

6th hole

Carnoustie - par-5 500-580 yds
RCD - par-4  360-390 yds

The 6th at Carnoustie is usually into the wind and seems to go on forever and ever. What's more it has a central fairway bunker, 'Hogan's Alley' and OoB to the left, an angled ditch further up and then an angled green at the end. A great par-5. The par-4 6th at RCD is a fine hole but in comparison to the 6th at Carnoustie there's only one winner.

Result - Carnoustie wins the hole. Match back to all square.

7th hole

Carnoustie - par-4 370-410 yds
RCD - par-3 125-145 yds

Carnoustie's 7th is a nice par-4 with OoB all along the left side. The 7th at RCD though, is a great 'tiny' par-3. Usually into the wind, a covering front bunker, a small green sloping severely off at the left, towards a viscous bunker, and the rear plus gunch to the right. Easy victory to RCD.

Result - RCD wins the hole. RCD back to 1 up.

8th hole

Carnoustie - par-3 160-180 yds
RCD - par-4 410-430 yds

Carnoustie's 8th is a fine par-3 with OOB to the left. Nice hole. The 8th at RCD is the Men's SI 1 hole and a tough hole it is too given that it usually plays back into the wind. Easy choice really.

RCD wins the hole. RCD now 2 up.

9th hole

Carnoustie - par-4 420-480 yds
RCD - par-4 430-490 yds

Carnoustie's 9th is a good, strong hole and it would probably win a comparative contest against many 9th holes but the 9th at RCD is yet another special, and multi-photographed, hole. RCD's 9th is usually an into the wind tee-shot played up over a hill into a valley, a long second shot in then needed either up towards or over the bunker blocked narrow gap and all with the famous view of the mountains in the background. Another easy choice.

Result - RCD wins the hole. RCD now 3 up

More later.


Atb

[James Boon]

Dai,

At last a comparison where I've played both course! 

Will be interested to see how this pans out by my gut instinct says its a comfortable win for RCD as the toughest. Carnoustie has quite a reputation but I sometimes feel a lot of that comes from the 99 Open with narrow fairways and brutal rough.

I've only ever played Carnoustie from the visitors tees which often seem quite forward, so that has some impact on my appreciation of its toughness? I think the thing which does make Carnoustie feel tough is that there is no let up. Virtually every hole feels like its straightforward but if you just let your concentration go for a minute or two you will have strung together quite a few bogeys without realising it.

Cheers,

James

 

[Richard Fisher]

Way back in the last century, or at least 1999, Golf World (I think) ran a feature on The Toughest Courses in the UK, in which Carnoustie was first, Portrush second, and Harlech third. Coincidentally in what was described as a 'sadist's summer' the R&A had used all three for their major championships that year, with the Open, Amateur and Boys at C, P and H respectively. I agree with James that, for a mid-handicapper trying to get fives from the medal tees, Carnoustie is  demanding but (at least until the very end) nothing like as tough or scary as RCD or Portrush, for that matter, but will be fascinated to see how this plays out in Thomas's evaluation.

[Thomas Dai]

James and Richard,

Let's see how it pans out!

10th hole

Carnoustie par-4 420-470
RCD - par-3 180-200 yds

The 10th at Carnoustie's, 'South America', has a wide ditch short of the front and along the right of the green plus the rather unusual tree to the right. Tough hole. The 10th at RCD is a fairly straightforward par-3 usually playing downwind. No brainer really.

Result - Carnoustie wins the hole. RCD back to 2 up.

11th hole

Carnoustie - par-4 350-380
RCD - par-4 420-430

The 11th is an okay hole but would be one of the lessor holes at Carnoustie whilst the 11th at RCD, although a fine hole what with the blind tee shot, isn't really one of RCD's stars. That said its probably a better hole than the 11th at Carnoustie although maybe not by much.

Result - RCD wins the hole. RCD back to 3 up.

12th hole

Carnoustie - par-4 410-490
RCD - par-5 470-530

Carnoustie 12th is a mean hombre, long and tough with ditches along both sides and pinching in at a gap 30 yds short of the green. The 11th at RCD is usually a downwind straightforward par-5, a potential pick-up hole. Victory to Carnoustie.

Carnoustie wins the hole. RCD back to 2 up.

13th hole

Carnoustie - par-3 140-180 yds
RCD - par-4 420-440 yds

Carnousties 13th is a nice par-3 whereas the 13th at RCD is one of the star holes and despite usually playing downwind it's a tough hole too (SI 2). Easy choice really.

RCD wins the hole. RCD now back to 3 up.

14th hole

Carnoustie - par-4/5 460-510 yds
RCD - par-3 200-210

Carnousties 14th, the famous 'Spectacles' hole, is a strong par-4 but a lessor hole when played as a par-5. A famous hole but maybe not a toughie. The 14th at RCD is a longish par-3 with the wind usually quartering off the left and OoB fairly wide right. Not much in it really. Let's not be unfair to either course and call it a halved hole.

Result - Hole halved. RCD still 3 up.

Later - to the finish!

Atb

[Thomas Dai]

Well here we go then, the run-in to the finish!

15th hole

Carnoustie - par-4 440-470 yds
RCD - par-4 450-470 yds

Two long par-4 toughies here. Very difficult to separate them. Let's not be unfair to either course and call this hole a half.

Result - hole halved. RCD still 3 up.

16th hole
Carnoustie - par-3 230-250 yds
RCD - par-4 300-340 yds

The 16th at Carnoustie is one tough par-3. When he won The Open at Carnoustie Tom Watson played the 16th hole 5 times including the play-off. He didn't make one par or better. The 16th at RCD although a nice hole isn't really one of RCD's stars.

Result - Carnoustie wins the hole. RCD back to 2 up.
17th hole


Carnoustie - par-4 420-460 yds
RCD - par-4 400-430 yds

Over the looping burn three times, sunken green, usually into the wind, the 17th at Carnoustie is a seriously tough hole. The 17th at RCD, with the usually criticised pond in the middle of the fairway, may be a fine hole, despite the pond, but it's not in the league of the 17th at Carnoustie.

Result - Carnoustie wins the hole. RCD back to 1 up.

18th hole

....drum roll or play the theme from "Jaws"......
Carnoustie - par-4 420-500 yds
RCD - par-5 530-550 yds

Carnoustie's 18th is pure evil, or wonderful, depending on your point of view! OoB all along the left side. The looping burn, which is surprisingly wide, in play from the tee on both sides of the fairway and then crossing in front of the green. And the green has that delightful (sic) slope on the left side that balls roll down and under the fence and finish OoB. The 18th at RCD is a fine doglegging left par-5 with a green that's not easy to hold but it's not in the same league as the 18th at Carnoustie.

Result - Carnoustie wins the hole.

Final result - Match finishes all square!

Well there we go then..........Carnoustie takes an early lead. RCD comes fighting back strongly and itself takes a big lead. Then the famous/infamous Carnoustie finish comes along and claws things back!

Thoughts?Atb

[Tom_Doak]

Not surprised by the result.  I figured County Down would have to be 3 up near the end ... it would lose the last three to a lot of courses, and the last three at Carnoustie are among the toughest finishes anywhere.


The only hole where your review surprised me was the 3rd at Royal County Down.  I think of that one as one of the great holes in golf, and a much better hole than the more-photographed 4th.  And I'm pretty sure it's not just me ... it was the consensus choice of my co-authors for the best 3rd hole in Great Britain & Ireland.  I guess maybe we didn't play it with a helping wind.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I missed that you were comparing these courses on a toughness basis, not a quality basis. Like that idea.

Top-5 tough links courses?

[Thomas Dai]

I missed that you were comparing these courses on a toughness basis, not a quality basis. Like that idea.

Top-5 tough links courses?

Top-5 tough links courses? GB&I ones. That would make a good thread in its own right!


Off the top of my head - and based on where I've played in various wind conditions with more plays than one and not from the yellow/Men's general play tees but the whites or further back, even all the way back -


1 - RCD/Carnoustie joint toughest - and that's without needing to use the very back tees on either course!
2 - n/a inc above
3 - twice around the Kilmore-9 at Carne!
4 - Royal Aberdeen - might be a surprise choice to some
5 - tba - need to ponder this a while


A good indicator would be if your handicap at your current home club would go up if you changed location and played one of the above as your home course. I can't imagine it wouldn't go up for most (if not all).


Atb

[Mark Pearce]

Askernish must be in there.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I missed that you were comparing these courses on a toughness basis, not a quality basis. Like that idea.

Top-5 tough links courses?

Top-5 tough links courses? GB&I ones. That would make a good thread in its own right!


Off the top of my head - and based on where I've played in various wind conditions with more plays than one and not from the yellow/Men's general play tees but the whites or further back, even all the way back -


1 - RCD/Carnoustie joint toughest - and that's without needing to use the very back tees on either course!
2 - n/a inc above
3 - twice around the Kilmore-9 at Carne!
4 - Royal Aberdeen - might be a surprise choice to some
5 - tba - need to ponder this a while


A good indicator would be if your handicap at your current home club would go up if you changed location and played one of the above as your home course. I can't imagine it wouldn't go up for most (if not all).


Atb

Ah here, the Kilmore isn't that tough (or at least won't be once maintained the desired way).

I'm thinking there are a few Irish courses that belong in there though, not least because most of the longest courses are in Ireland (due to Ireland building new links when GB weren't). Hackett was a demon for getting as much length as possible and Ruddy liked to set a man-sized challenge.

Rosapenna Sandy Hills is one good candidate.

[Thomas Dai]

Ah here, the Kilmore isn't that tough (or at least won't be once maintained the desired way).
I'm thinking there are a few Irish courses that belong in there though, not least because most of the longest courses are in Ireland (due to Ireland building new links when GB weren't). Hackett was a demon for getting as much length as possible and Ruddy liked to set a man-sized challenge.
Rosapenna Sandy Hills is one good candidate.

Kilmore - oops, just couldn't resist being a wee bit naughty! - 😄 - looking forward to playing it again, more so if  maintained as you'd like it to be. One of my favourites.


The Sandy Hills at Rosapenna is one I've played and, unlike some, I rather liked. But I only played it the once and even though that with from the whites I played particularly well that day so any judgement could be a bit false.


I think this needs a separate thread so I shall start one and, if it'll work, I'll copy posts across.


Atb

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Interesting comparison, but a difficult one to make given the flatness of Carnoustie and the rolling nature of RCD. I just prefer RCD.

[Jason Topp]

Is this a toughness or quality comparison?  I assumed quality but a prior post assumed toughness.  From your commentary it seems like a combination.