Greens that are interesting for approaches with a three wood or a pitching wedge

[Jason Topp]

The 14th at Windsong Farm has one of my favorite greens.  The hole plays about 430 yards from the tees I play (although the length can vary from 370 to nearly 500 yards) and a good tee shot with a tailwind on firm ground landed in the correct spot can yield a short iron approach, even for me.  More often, a good tee shot into a headwind or cross wind can leave me with a three wood. 

Here is a photo from local golf course photographer Peter Wong taken from around 100 yards   

http://www.peterwongphotography.com/


Regardless of the club used, the green poses interesting questions on the approach.  The green is huge, sits on a rise and is angled a bit from front right to back left.   Most of the green features a false front and a back slope that starts about 10 feet from the back edge and feeds the ball down short grass about 15 yards.  The right side of the green is much more forgiving because it is closer, has more green space and the slopes at the edge of the green are much more forgiving.  The left side is very severe with around 10 yards of depth to land the ball on the exact line you want to hit it.  If you miss you are facing either a flop shot that also must be precise or the choice of running the ball up onto the green.

As a result, a 3 wood shot is interesting because if you keep it right, you have a decent chance to feed the ball either on the right side of the green or close to it.  As the approach gets shorter, you are tempted to go after a pin on the left but, even with a wedge you need to control both line and distance for success.  The conservative player hitting a 3 wood has a decent chance against an aggressive player with a short iron.

I cannot think of too many greens that provide so much interest from such a wide variety of distances but am interested to see if others have such examples.   

[Stephen Pellegrino]

I cannot say that I've played Windsong Farm, but #2 at Ballyneal has always seems strong in this regard. Wind direction and severity being everything, I think that the enjoyment and difficultly of the second shot are equal when trying to sling a running 3 wood or bounce a wedge into that green.

In general, I find that this to be a recurring theme at Ballyneal, where #6 and #17 can call for one of those two clubs.

My two cents is that the 2nd hole does this concept best - especially with the high right side. The 6th hole does it second best, with its right to left bias and its short grass to BOTH sides of the green. I might have others disagree, but the 17th seems to be the toughest one in this regard. The native grass to the right (protecting the more desirable side of the putting surface)  is part of what makes it tougher with the long approach. Also, the kick from the front left - which never seems to be as strong as I expect it to be adds to the difficulty. Who knows, maybe I just stink, or maybe I'm just too stupid. Then again, as a friend said about another hole on another course: Sometimes you just have to hit a golf shot. I never seem to be able to hit that shot on #17, and maybe I'm just mad at myself.

-Stephen

[Jason Thurman]

I recently played Miami-Whitewater Forest Golf Course for the first time. It's a county-owned muni west of Cincinnati that was surprisingly not half bad. The 12th hole is a pretty good par 5 with an elevated green that tilts hard from right-to-left fronted by a bunker on the left - imagine a Redan green at the end of a 510 yard hole and you have the general idea. For the player going for the green in two (me, in theory), the right side allows for a run-up shot that will feed toward left side hole locations. For the player who misses after going for the green in two (also me), the third shot is a challenge almost regardless of where it ends up. For balls missed short of the bunker left (yep, me), the pitch is a delicate one over the hazard but into the slope of the green so the ball stops quickly. For balls left out to the right and short, the pitch looks straightforward but is actually very difficult due to the slope of the green running away from the player (I tested that shot out too, since it was my first round with the Kirkland ball and I was trying to get a feel for the stopping power - not bad).


It strikes me that the greens meeting the requirements of this thread's title are those which allow enough room and a reasonable play for a bouncing shot from a longer club, while challenging a player with a shorter club to carry the ball the proper distance and stop it quickly. Windsong's 14th definitely does it, as does M-WFGC's 12th. Thinking through other examples in my head, there are an awful lot of holes with greens that are elevated from the fairway, and more dramatically on one side than the other, with ample short grass leading to (and from, for balls that come up short) the putting surface.

[Jason Topp]

It strikes me that the greens meeting the requirements of this thread's title are those which allow enough room and a reasonable play for a bouncing shot from a longer club, while challenging a player with a shorter club to carry the ball the proper distance and stop it quickly. Windsong's 14th definitely does it, as does M-WFGC's 12th. Thinking through other examples in my head, there are an awful lot of holes with greens that are elevated from the fairway, and more dramatically on one side than the other, with ample short grass leading to (and from, for balls that come up short) the putting surface.

Thanks Jason - that seems to be a pretty good general description of the holes I can think of that do this well.

[Greg Tallman]

One that you have played - Cabo del Sol Ocean #5

[Eric LeFante]

13 and 15 at Augusta. Not too many pros are hitting 3 woods in anymore but they certainly used to.


The play is completely different with a 3 wood and a wedge for both holes. With a 3 wood on 13 you are trying to land it on the left front part of the green pretty much regardless of where the pin is. You can use the mound in the middle of the green to work the ball towards a right pin. You wouldn't use the mound with a wedge in your hand to a right pin.


On 15, the wedge shot is so terrifying that the pros go for the green whenever possible. I don't think many guys would go at a left pin with a 3 wood. They would probably just go for the right side of the green.

[Jason Topp]

One that you have played - Cabo del Sol Ocean #5

Good choice Greg.  It definitely has a similar feel and a better view!

[Jason Topp]

13 and 15 at Augusta. Not too many pros are hitting 3 woods in anymore but they certainly used to.


The play is completely different with a 3 wood and a wedge for both holes. With a 3 wood on 13 you are trying to land it on the left front part of the green pretty much regardless of where the pin is. You can use the mound in the middle of the green to work the ball towards a right pin. You wouldn't use the mound with a wedge in your hand to a right pin.


On 15, the wedge shot is so terrifying that the pros go for the green whenever possible. I don't think many guys would go at a left pin with a 3 wood. They would probably just go for the right side of the green.

Both good choices!

[David_Madison]

#15 at Mid-Pines... a really interesting second shot that calls for a long fade off a hanging lie, or a tricky wedge shot to a big tricky green that tilts hard from right to left with a big elevated bunker guarding the right side

[Randy Thompson]

Nice, almost looks like New England. Would love to see more, anybody every do a photo tour on this site? Web site only has a couple of photos.

[Jason Topp]

Nice, almost looks like New England. Would love to see more, anybody every do a photo tour on this site? Web site only has a couple of photos.

Randy - I have not done one although I have meant to do so.  Peter's website has an album with pictures of pretty much every hole before recent bunker work and tree removal:   http://www.peterwongphotography.com


There are also a number of threads with photos.  Here is one from when I invited the local GCA crowd out to Windsong in 2012:  [size=78%]http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53879.msg1239581.html#msg1239581[/size]


We also played at Windsong in the Dixie Cup in 2015:  [/size][size=78%]Re: The 2015 Midwest Mashie - Minnesota - FINAL RECAP AND OBSERVATIONS[/size]

[Tom Bacsanyi]

3rd at CommonGround, which seems modeled after Augusta National #8.  Greens protected by mounding with a narrow gap to shoot for with the big club, but the mounding can create blindish wedge shots as well.

[Tom_Doak]

In my ideal world, pretty much every hole would be interesting for approaches with a three wood or a pitching wedge, and I have always tried to think this way.  Because there will always be some old guy out there in the fairway needing to hit all of a 3-wood just to get home, and some kid who can hit any green with a wedge for his second shot. 


The old guys have always been around, but driver-wedge for all 18 holes has only been a development in the past 20 years.

[Michael Whitaker]

My first thought was 11 at Streamsong Blue. It gets trickier the closer you get to the green. From 3-wood distance old guys like me are happy to get on the green somewhere... while the youngsters are challenged by the green's ridges and contours.

[David Davis]

One that you have played - Cabo del Sol Ocean #5

Jason, I guess you have to be looking at holes through the eyes of a player much better than I. To me there doesn't look to be much space there to accurately slip a 3 wood through, maybe with a perfect little draw. Or maybe there is much more room than it seems. If I'm hitting 3 wood into that hole then it's a bit of a hail mary. Though I have not played it. However, if that the look from 100 yds given photos make things in general look further away that little slot would really look small from 240 yds out.


Greg's example is fresh in my mind, first of all because I needed 3 wood to get there and secondly because I managed a rare birdie on such a long hole. The 5th at Cabo definitely interesting for both a wedge (I'm guessing 3rd shot for most) or a 3 wood. At 458 yds and a par 4 it takes a fairly long hitter to have a wedge in hand after the tee shot. Perhaps if the wind helps.


That being said the 4th hole at Noordwijkse my home club is 438 meters (479 yds) up hill and a friend of mine from Ireland on a no wind day hit driver wedge for an easy birdie. First time I've ever seen that. So indeed through the right eyes anything is possible.

[Greg Tallman]

One that you have played - Cabo del Sol Ocean #5

Jason, I guess you have to be looking at holes through the eyes of a player much better than I. To me there doesn't look to be much space there to accurately slip a 3 wood through, maybe with a perfect little draw. Or maybe there is much more room than it seems. If I'm hitting 3 wood into that hole then it's a bit of a hail mary. Though I have not played it. However, if that the look from 100 yds given photos make things in general look further away that little slot would really look small from 240 yds out.


Greg's example is fresh in my mind, first of all because I needed 3 wood to get there and secondly because I managed a rare birdie on such a long hole. The 5th at Cabo definitely interesting for both a wedge (I'm guessing 3rd shot for most) or a 3 wood. At 458 yds and a par 4 it takes a fairly long hitter to have a wedge in hand after the tee shot. Perhaps if the wind helps.


That being said the 4th hole at Noordwijkse my home club is 438 meters (479 yds) up hill and a friend of mine from Ireland on a no wind day hit driver wedge for an easy birdie. First time I've ever seen that. So indeed through the right eyes anything is possible.

David, You could at least acknowledge the soft ball I threw, setting up your birdie tale! And don't sell yourself short, you played it from the 469 tee.

The alternate blue tee plays 413 yards and the White tee only 362 so there are those who can thread the needle and have a wedge second, but as you note most wedges into the green are third shots after hacking out of the arroyo along the right side. 

[Jason Topp]

One that you have played - Cabo del Sol Ocean #5

Jason, I guess you have to be looking at holes through the eyes of a player much better than I. To me there doesn't look to be much space there to accurately slip a 3 wood through, maybe with a perfect little draw. Or maybe there is much more room than it seems. If I'm hitting 3 wood into that hole then it's a bit of a hail mary. Though I have not played it. However, if that the look from 100 yds given photos make things in general look further away that little slot would really look small from 240 yds out.


Greg's example is fresh in my mind, first of all because I needed 3 wood to get there and secondly because I managed a rare birdie on such a long hole. The 5th at Cabo definitely interesting for both a wedge (I'm guessing 3rd shot for most) or a 3 wood. At 458 yds and a par 4 it takes a fairly long hitter to have a wedge in hand after the tee shot. Perhaps if the wind helps.


That being said the 4th hole at Noordwijkse my home club is 438 meters (479 yds) up hill and a friend of mine from Ireland on a no wind day hit driver wedge for an easy birdie. First time I've ever seen that. So indeed through the right eyes anything is possible.r

David. The picture is a bit deceptive.  The short bunker is 70 yards short of the green so there is a lot of room on the right. 

[Thomas Dai]

Jason,
What would be the distance between the front (nearest camera) edge of the central bunker and the front edge of the putting surface? Would seem as if the right-hand bunker is nearer the green than the central bunker.
Atb

[BHoover]

Thomas, the front bunker in that picture is probably 20-30 yards short of the green. From the fairway, it appears closer to the green than it actually is. The bunker on the right is next to the green.

[Jason Topp]

I would guess it is 30-40 yards short.  There is a lot of room over that bunker.

[David Davis]

David. The picture is a bit deceptive.  The short bunker is 70 yards short of the green so there is a lot of room on the right.

Jason, thanks that indeed changes is a lot. As long as you are right side then you can run it up. Thanks!

[David Davis]

David, You could at least acknowledge the soft ball I threw, setting up your birdie tale! And don't sell yourself short, you played it from the 469 tee.

The alternate blue tee plays 413 yards and the White tee only 362 so there are those who can thread the needle and have a wedge second, but as you note most wedges into the green are third shots after hacking out of the arroyo along the right side.

Greg, I just saw this. Yes thanks for setting it up so nicely for me ;-) you highlighted my only birdies from the 21 rounds I played on my trip. I almost feel like a player. ;-)


Hilarious what you wrote on the other thread but we were so off topic I will add the reply here. It was a very funny comment from your buddies! Patience also thought so.

[corey miller]

#17 Prairie Dunes....

[Jason Topp]

#17 Prairie Dunes....

Yep!  Actually there were quite a few at Prairie Dunes that worked well.  For example, 1 give a player laying up and hitting a wedge a decent chance against a player that hits the green in the wrong section.  7 to a back pin is really tough regardless of the club you choose. 

[John Crowley]

Jason,
The other day your description of the interest of the #14 green complex at WSF came to life.


The hole was cut in the left rear of the green.


I (old guy) hit 4 wood into the front bank of the green (intentionally) and the ball hopped up and stayed on the green. Two putts for a par.


My nephew (scratch) flew a 9 iron that landed 15 feet short of the hole and rolled through the green. He putted from the rear "chipping swale" and made 5. Greens were running 12-13.


It's all about how and where you land the ball!


As you know there are several (most) green complexes at WSF that in varying degrees demand that you carefully plan where and how to land your approach shot. Close behind 14 in importance of good planning (visualization) and execution are 2, 8, 13, 17.
John