The 5 toughest links courses in GB&I are......

[Thomas Dai]

Prompted by my Carnoustie vrs Royal County Down tough links comparison thread - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63694.0.html - what do you reckon are the 5 toughest links courses in GB&I?


Atb

[Thomas Dai]

Posts that prompted this thread -

Quote from: Ally Mcintosh on Today at 01:01:23 PM

I missed that you were comparing these courses on a toughness basis, not a quality basis.

Like that idea.

Top-5 tough links courses?


Top-5 tough links courses? GB&I ones. That would make a good thread in its own right!

Off the top of my head - and based on where I've played in various wind conditions with more plays than one and not from the yellow/Men's general play tees but the whites or further back, even all the way back -

1 - RCD/Carnoustie joint toughest - and that's without needing to use the very back tees on either course!
2 - n/a inc above
3 - twice around the Kilmore-9 at Carne!
4 - Royal Aberdeen - might be a surprise choice to some
5 - need to ponder this a while

A good indicator would be if your handicap at your current home club would go up if you changed location and played one of the above as your home course. I can't imagine it wouldn't go up for most (if not all).
Atb

From Mark Pearce -

Askernish must be in there.

Quote from: Ally Mcintosh on Today at 02:20:19 PM

Ah here, the Kilmore isn't that tough (or at least won't be once maintained the desired way).

I'm thinking there are a few Irish courses that belong in there though, not least because most of the longest courses are in Ireland (due to Ireland building new links when GB weren't). Hackett was a demon for getting as much length as possible and Ruddy liked to set a man-sized challenge.Rosapenna Sandy Hills is one good candidate.


Kilmore - oops, just couldn't resist being a wee bit naughty! - 😄 - looking forward to playing it again, more so if  maintained as you'd like it to be. One of my favourites.

The Sandy Hills at Rosapenna is one I've played and, unlike some, I rather liked. But I only played it the once and even though that was from the whites I played particularly well that day so any judgement could be a bit false.

I think this needs a separate thread so I shall start one and, if it'll work, I'll copy posts across.

Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ok,

Top 5 toughest in Ireland for a start (no order):

Rosapenna Sandy Hills
Enniscrone
The Island
Donegal
The European

RCD and Portrush not far behind.

[Thomas Dai]

Not played Donegal/Murvagh nor The European nor The Island but would very much like the opportunity to someday, particularly the latter which I've had several strong recommendations to play. They must all be pretty tough though if you reckon they're more challenging than either RCP or RP.



Sandy Hills, see above. Enniscrone I can understand. Tough for sure. At Buda the men didn't play from the whites but a set of tees further forward (green?) and it was okayish for me, just. I played it from the whites in a competition on an earlier visit and it was damn tough from those tees.


No Ballybunion Old?


Atb

[Garland Bayley]

I found Castlerock to be harder than Enniscrone or Donegal.
It seems to me that Castlerock is to narrow to play in much wind.
Lost the most balls of my trip at Castlerock.

[Greg Taylor]

Basically, this question is: what course has the tightest fairways - no?


Or, how windy was it when you played that one time there?


Anyway The European has got to be up there.

[Thomas Dai]

Basically, this question is: what course has the tightest fairways - no?
Or, how windy was it when you played that one time there?
Anyway The European has got to be up there.

Greg,


I'm discounting 1 play only and ideally would like to discount a few more plays too but then there'd be a limitation on debate although it would help alleviate issues such as wind, the weather generally, time of year etc plus how well the invidual may or may not have been playing at the time. What's wrong with tight fairway widths? If that's how a course is then that's how it is.


What would your 5 be?


Atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Basically, this question is: what course has the tightest fairways - no?


Or, how windy was it when you played that one time there?


Anyway The European has got to be up there.

I don't see the question as that. Although that's one variable. Here are some others:

1. Tightness of fairways
2. Angle of those fairways to the tee
3. Do the fairways gather or repel
4. Overall length
5. Are the greens small or undulating
6. Do the greens gather or repel
7. Is the course exposed to high winds
8. Are there blind shots with tight landing areas
9. Are there a lot of forced carries from the tee
10. Are there a lot of forced carries to the green
11. Is the rough playable
12. Are there a lot of bunkers
13. Does out of bounds / lateral hazards come in to play on more than a couple of occasions
14. Do you rarely end up with an even lie
15. Is there plenty of room to miss around greens

Etc... Etc...

[Sean_A]

I would probably go with...from the daily tees

Portrush
Carnoustie
Troon
The European Club

and a tie between Portstewart, Deal & Rosa Sandy Links

Ciao

[Shane Wright]

Very good question that I'm not sure I've seen on here ever.   


I'm a little shocked there has not been a mention of Muirfield yet.  Carnoustie is extremely hard, but the greens are not overly penal. Muirfield is a crazy test of driving and just as difficult around the greens.


1. Royal County Down - In my opinion, RCD leaves all other UK courses in the dust in terms of difficulty.  There are many legends about how high Tiger shot his first time around the course while he was in his prime. I hesitate to quote them because I have no idea how to verify their accuracy. But the other 4 don't even sniff RCD in my book. 


2. Muirfield - I've been around it several times, wind and hardly any wind. It is an automatic top of the list candidate whenever anyone asks what the hardest course is I've played.


3. European Club - only played it once, but it seems like a course that would just be absolutely brutal unless you are puring everything. 


4. Carnoustie - Very difficult tee and second shot course.  Not overly difficult once you get around the greens.  I love it.  It's an underrated course in my opinion.


5. Royal Portrush - The bends in the fairways put a really strong emphasis on driving on a really windy site.


Other Considerations:


- Cruden Bay - I could be wrong because we played it on a really windy day, and I think it would be much easier on a night of sleep and a little less wind


- Portstewart - very difficult back 9

[Clyde Johnson]

I'll have to think about the other four, but The Jubilee Course immediately springs to mind...

Small green complexes, with nothing (and I mean nothing) helping you to work the ball in or even hold them. Some awkward playing angles and hardly anywhere to play away from the bundles of trouble (except perhaps for short.)


Pretty tight off the tee with gorse (plus the dunes and reverse camber fairway on , and the fairways are the tightest of all the St Andrews Course. That part of the links is pretty exposed too.

The last four four or five holes are brutal, especially against the wind - It is rare that even the winning scores in a St Andrews Club medal avoid a nett double bogey on one of those!

[Ally Mcintosh]

What about Ballybunion Cashen?

I don't know it too well but tiny, raised greens that don't gather never makes for easy golf.

Actually, County Louth is tricky for that reason as well. But it is very playable.

[Josh Stevens]

Not sure about the full 18, but the back 9s of Deal and Troon leave you bleeding.

[Steve Salmen]

In June of 2006, I shot my career low round at the time at the Kintyre course at Turnberry. The next day I scored 20 strokes higher at Dundonald.  From back tees, I think that is the most difficult course I've played. Never played Carnoustie over 7k but that would be next. RCD is definitely top 5 along with Muirfield. Sandwich would round it up.

[mike_malone]

The toughest I have played in no order.
Castlegregory
Lahinch
StEnodoc
Portstewart
European Club

[Dave McCollum]

As a neophyte golf tourist, the toughest tests I saw were in Ireland:

1.  European Club (in a 40 mph gale)
2. R. Sandy Hills (photographed, didn't play after 11 straight days of golf)
3. Portrush (blowing hard, wicked rough)
4. Waterville (big, brawny, long, breezy)
5. RCD (played well, so loved the place)

[Greg Taylor]

OK forgive my late night cynicism...


Carnoustie - not necessarily tight but just a drag for some reason.
The European - too tight...!


Lanhinch - tight in parts but fun
Ballybunion


The top two stick out for me.


But any links course on a windy day... tough full stop!

[Thomas Dai]

Cynicism forgiven Greg!


Nice listing of variables from Ally.



The 'usual suspects' are being mentioned plus a few slight surprise nominations, which is nice.


One course I've been told about but never visited myself is West Lancs. I was told it might even be the most challenging course along the Lancashire coast. Anyone know more of it?



The European Club has been mentioned a few times. There's an old Courses by Country feature by Ran herein but I can't find much else via the search engine.


Anyone done a European Club photo-tour?


Atb

[Mark Pearce]

I played West Lancs last year the day before a game at Birkdale.  I really liked West Lancs but don't recall thinking it was brutally difficult.


I'm surprised by some of the suggestions being mentioned here.  I guess with limited plays, this is a very subjective thing.  I played Portstewart in September, for instance, in a three club wind but I played probably my best golf of the year (having hacked it around for the whole of BUDA!) and it never occurred to me that it was a difficult course. 


I'm not surprised to see Muirfield making several lists but I never think of Muirfield as difficult.  Yes, if you don't play well you'll struggle but I reckon most golfers, if they have a decent day there, will manage to play to handicap.  I couldn't imagine playing to my handicap at Askernish, even on a still day!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I think Royal Lytham might have escaped attention. It has an awful lot of bunkers.

[Bryan Izatt]

Using SSS as an indicator of difficulty for a course (at least the USGA rating scheme uses many of the factors Ally listed) for scratch golfers I think these ones would be near the top, certainly of courses I've played:


Trump Scotland  77.4 for a par of 72 +5.4


Royal Lytham 76 on a par of 70  +6


Royal County Down 75 on a par of 71  +4


Carnoustie  75 on a par of 72  +3


Notts  76 on a par of 72  +4




Certainly all impossibly difficult for me from the tips.

[Mark Pearce]

Errr...


When did Notts become a links?


All of those are certainly very hard layouts.

[Rob Marshall]

Ok,

Top 5 toughest in Ireland for a start (no order):

Rosapenna Sandy Hills
Enniscrone
The Island
Donegal
The European

RCD and Portrush not far behind.

Sandy Hills harder than RCD and Portrush?

[Sean Leary]

Tougher for the low handicapper or high handicapper? Always different when you look at it between the two.

[Bryan Izatt]

Errr...


When did Notts become a links?


All of those are certainly very hard layouts.

Couldn't slip that by you.  Should have known better.