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Buck Wolter

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Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« on: October 12, 2016, 09:07:42 PM »
Good Twitter follow and someone to root for on the PGA tour.

http://www.sltrib.com/sports/4458905-155/kragthorpe-utah-pga-pro-zac-blair
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

David_Tepper

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2016, 10:36:34 PM »
Buck -

Thanks for the link. Enjoyed the article.

DT

Steve Kohler

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2016, 10:02:16 AM »
Earlier this summer I was playing at Scioto CC the Wednesday before the Memorial in Columbus.  The pro-am was being held that afternoon at MVGC, but I was in the Scioto pro shop after my round and the talk was that Zac had called and asked if he could play a twilight round at Scioto after his pro-am responsibilities were over.  I thought it was pretty cool that a tour pro would even want to visit another club, especially the evening before a tournament round.

Ari Marcus

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2016, 11:11:01 AM »
I think it has been posted about before, but Zac eventually wants to build a golf course called "The Buck Club". If you follow "The Buck Club" on Twitter @thebuckclub, he posts many sketches and ideas about what he wants the club to look like.

Jason Topp

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2016, 11:16:24 AM »
He should hire Cory Lewis to caddy for him and he could really do some damage to his bucket list and learn what a lot of golf actually is.

Andy Johnson

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2016, 11:59:34 AM »
I met Zac at an event, he's a great guy and a huge architecture fan, definitely someone to root for week in and week out on Tour.


I am writing a series about him turning his dream into a reality with the Buck Club. Part 2 will be up on the site next week but here is part 1. http://www.friedegg.co/golf-courses/building-the-buck-club-the-idea

Adam Warren

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2017, 02:08:51 PM »
Haven't listened to it all yet, but Zac was on the golf.com podcast with Alan Shipnuck today talking about what they are doing with The Buck Club.  Apparently is a big Raynor fan and plans to include several of the Raynor template holes.  Take a listen.

Adam Warren

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2017, 02:12:05 PM »
In a bit of "live tweeting" he takes a bit of a shot at GCA's and that to him they would be a waste of money to get a big name GCA in there.  Gives a couple of examples of why, but I think his point was really that he thinks he can do it and doesnt need to pay for the name exposure of a big GCA.

Declan Kavanagh

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2017, 03:55:20 PM »
Will definitely be interesting to watch him tackle this.   Intriguing to say the least.

Howard Riefs

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2017, 04:34:18 PM »
Haven't listened to it all yet, but Zac was on the golf.com podcast with Alan Shipnuck today talking about what they are doing with The Buck Club.  Apparently is a big Raynor fan and plans to include several of the Raynor template holes.  Take a listen.


http://www.golf.com/tour-news/2017/01/31/zac-blair-explains-his-creation-buck-club
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Scott Warren

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2017, 05:56:06 PM »
In a bit of "live tweeting" he takes a bit of a shot at GCA's and that to him they would be a waste of money to get a big name GCA in there.  Gives a couple of examples of why, but I think his point was really that he thinks he can do it and doesnt need to pay for the name exposure of a big GCA.

What's that old Alister MacKenzie quote about the cost of not seeking professional advice?!

BHoover

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2017, 06:11:09 PM »
Oakmont seemed to turn out pretty well for Mr. Fownes. Why couldn't The Buck Club be similar?

Tom_Doak

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2017, 09:29:36 PM »
Oakmont seemed to turn out pretty well for Mr. Fownes. Why couldn't The Buck Club be similar?


Well, it could -- but for every Oakmont, how many failures are there?


Of course Zac can build his project however he wants, if his investors are okay with that.  But I hope he finds some good people to help him.  I would never think of building a course without lining up some really talented people to help me.  Even at High Pointe, which I was trying to do "by myself," I had Tom Mead helping with the grassing and project management, and Gil Hanse as an intern.

BCowan

Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2017, 09:33:41 PM »
Oakmont seemed to turn out pretty well for Mr. Fownes. Why couldn't The Buck Club be similar?


U forgot Champion Hills and the other course a high school band teacher built. It's beautiful, love the spirit.  I'm excited to play the Buck!

BHoover

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2017, 07:39:01 AM »
Oakmont seemed to turn out pretty well for Mr. Fownes. Why couldn't The Buck Club be similar?


Well, it could -- but for every Oakmont, how many failures are there?


Of course Zac can build his project however he wants, if his investors are okay with that.  But I hope he finds some good people to help him.  I would never think of building a course without lining up some really talented people to help me.  Even at High Pointe, which I was trying to do "by myself," I had Tom Mead helping with the grassing and project management, and Gil Hanse as an intern.


I suspect you're right that he will bring in experts to help him on grassing, moving earth and shaping, installing irrigation and infrastructure, etc. I wasn't suggesting that "going it alone" meant he might do everything. I suspect that he intends to do the design work himself (maybe layout and routing), but even there, you can argue that it's wise to enlist some help. You obviously know infinitely more about the entire process than I could ever pretend to know (or wish to know). I only meant to suggest that him wanting to do this on his own doesn't seem as crazy as the thread seems to insinuate. No disrespect intended to the professionals who design, build, manage, and operate our golf courses.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2017, 09:35:08 AM »
I always felt as though I could build my own course. I designed courses during Latin and Algebra in HS. I played around with bunkering, routing, and length. I dreamed of designing my own course just for my pleasure. Early in my adult years I saw a course go from virgin land to completed course. I had never dreamt that there was so much to creating a course. I'm not sure how Mr. Fownes did it but I don't think it takes a rare bird to do it today. After reading the article I suspect Zac knows that as well.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bill Satterfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2017, 11:15:05 AM »
I think the article in inaccurate in saying the course will be in St. George, I believe they are targeting a property that it will be about 20 minutes south of Provo which will provide good access to BYU's golf team.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2017, 11:38:50 AM »

When I was a teenager I used to help my dad out in his small construction business. No matter how many 'forms' he'd built over the years for, say, a new concrete porch and steps, each and every one was different. Every once in a while I'd watch him measure and cut and put one together, only to hear him swear loudly at a mistake/something that wasn't working and then start again and tinker with it until he got it right.  I realized one difference between a professional (him) and an amateur (me): when *he* encountered a problem or a mistake, he blew off some steam and then went about *solving* it; but when I was trying to build something and got it wrong, I wouldn't try again -- I'd simply conclude that I didn't know what I was doing, and give up.

Many of those old amateur architects and classic old courses -- for how many years and in how many ways did Fownes and Crump etc etc tinker and adjust and revamp their labours of love until they got it right? A lot, I think. (And how many of all those classic/golden age courses ended up having many other hands working on them over the years, improving the design and/or drainage etc etc? Again, a lot I think.) So I think the challenge for the amateur who wants to design and build his own course isn't necessarily that he has bad ideas and/or doesn't know what he is doing; it's that, when he encounters (the inevitable) problems or finds that the routing and/or several golf holes aren't working, he'll probably be more inclined to feel foolish and give up completely than to realize that 'mistakes' are part of the process and start again.

C&C have gone back at least once to 'fix' the 14th at Bandon Trails -- folks might complain about the golf hole, but no one suggests it's because C&C didn't know what they were doing or that they are hacks. But if an amateur built that same golf hole, I can imagine the howls of protests and indignation...     

Peter
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 11:41:35 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2017, 01:16:49 PM »

C&C have gone back at least once to 'fix' the 14th at Bandon Trails -- folks might complain about the golf hole, but no one suggests it's because C&C didn't know what they were doing or that they are hacks. But if an amateur built that same golf hole, I can imagine the howls of protests and indignation...     



Yes, but ... a novice is less likely to get the shaping exactly the way he intends a hole to play.  Which is generally not a problem if you're only trying to build a basic golf course, but becomes more of a problem the more detailed and "special" you are trying to make it, the faster the greens will be, etc.  That's why having multiple people on site who build golf courses for a living is important; it reduces the chance of errors, even if they weren't going to make valuable suggestions of their own.  At the same time, talented helpers also make valuable suggestions that most architects would be happy to use.


I am all for new people trying to do their thing, but I know I'm a lot better at it than when I built High Pointe ... and even at that point, I had a lot more experience than Zac Blair does.




Peter Pallotta

Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2017, 01:42:59 PM »
Tom - you're right, and as I tend to do I overstated my case.  I take your word, of course, that you're "a lot better at it" now than when you built High Pointe, but I'm not exactly sure what that means. Or, to put it more clearly: while almost anyone who wants to can indeed develop his craft over time and to some extent, my experience/belief is that the essential talent (or lack of it) remains fairly constant; instead, it is the *ideal* that changes, and the *vision* for what's possible & doable that continues to evolve most of all. What I was trying to suggest in my post is that someone who can begin with that ideal and that vision is more than half-way there...and that if he sticks with it and keeps trying and doesn't get too discouraged by his mistakes, he will find a way to have it realized and come to fruition.


Peter 

Mike Bodo

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2017, 02:00:18 PM »

C&C have gone back at least once to 'fix' the 14th at Bandon Trails -- folks might complain about the golf hole, but no one suggests it's because C&C didn't know what they were doing or that they are hacks. But if an amateur built that same golf hole, I can imagine the howls of protests and indignation...     



Yes, but ... a novice is less likely to get the shaping exactly the way he intends a hole to play.  Which is generally not a problem if you're only trying to build a basic golf course, but becomes more of a problem the more detailed and "special" you are trying to make it, the faster the greens will be, etc.  That's why having multiple people on site who build golf courses for a living is important; it reduces the chance of errors, even if they weren't going to make valuable suggestions of their own.  At the same time, talented helpers also make valuable suggestions that most architects would be happy to use.


I am all for new people trying to do their thing, but I know I'm a lot better at it than when I built High Pointe ... and even at that point, I had a lot more experience than Zac Blair does.


Tom, your comments raise an interesting question. What qualifies any current or former touring professional as a golf course architect or designer? I have to believe Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Tom Weiskopf, Ben Crenshaw, etc. and many former touring pro's that have their names stamped on golf courses never studied landscaping, agronomy and golf course design while attending college or even during their careers. With that said, what makes them an expert in the field outside of their name?


I find it amusing when PGA professionals feel they can do what you and other experienced and esteemed GCA's do for your livelihood as good, if not better, simply based on the notion that they have played and seen enough golf courses in their lifetime to know what's good design and what isn't. I'm not saying Zac will or won't become a proficient architect and course designer one day, but I think there is this prevailing romanticism pro golfers have that they can design courses better than those that have gone before them and those doing it professionally now simply based on their playing experience.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 02:06:28 PM by Mike Bodo »
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

BCowan

Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2017, 02:13:29 PM »
I didn't know Donald Ross and Willie Park Jr and a few others had Landscape or Agronomy degrees.  You learn something everyday on GCA.. 

Also I didn't listen to the audio yet, did he say he was going to construct the golf course as well? 

Joe Zucker

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2017, 02:30:20 PM »
I hope Zac Blair gets a chance to do this. I also hope there are some "failures" in his design.  If there are things in his course that people don't like or don't work, it will mean he did something different.  One way to get new and interesting ideas into a course is to let someone without as many preconceived notions try it.  Would we have gotten Uber or the iPhone if we let Taxi companies or AT&T build those products?  Without the experience that many great architects have he will surely make mistakes, but hopefully he stumbles into a cool idea or two that are different.


By not hiring a famous architect, he may get a different looking course.  Sometimes it seems like the best architects are confined by their success.  We have all seen how great their courses are and when someone wants to hire an architect, we often get something similar to what they have seen elsewhere (I would guess this partly to do with an architects style and partly directions from the owner).  I don't think we have reached a saturation point for Doak or C&C courses, but more variety is a good thing in my opinion.  It might suck, it might not. But at least it will be different and that would be a success in it's own way.

BHoover

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Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2017, 02:35:05 PM »
I hope Zac Blair gets a chance to do this. I also hope there are some "failures" in his design.  If there are things in his course that people don't like or don't work, it will mean he did something different.  One way to get new and interesting ideas into a course is to let someone without as many preconceived notions try it.  Would we have gotten Uber or the iPhone if we let Taxi companies or AT&T build those products?  Without the experience that many great architects have he will surely make mistakes, but hopefully he stumbles into a cool idea or two that are different.


By not hiring a famous architect, he may get a different looking course.  Sometimes it seems like the best architects are confined by their success.  We have all seen how great their courses are and when someone wants to hire an architect, we often get something similar to what they have seen elsewhere (I would guess this partly to do with an architects style and partly directions from the owner).  I don't think we have reached a saturation point for Doak or C&C courses, but more variety is a good thing in my opinion.  It might suck, it might not. But at least it will be different and that would be a success in it's own way.


Well said. Excellent post.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Zac Blair PGA tour player and golf architecture fan
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2017, 02:38:33 PM »

Tom, your comments raise an interesting question. What qualifies any current or former touring professional as a golf course architect or designer? I have to believe Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Tom Weiskopf, Ben Crenshaw, etc. and many former touring pro's that have their names stamped on golf courses never studied landscaping, agronomy and golf course design while attending college or even during their careers. With that said, what makes them an expert in the field outside of their name?


I find it amusing when PGA professionals feel they can do what you and other experienced and esteemed GCA's do for your livelihood as good, if not better, simply based on the notion that they have played and seen enough golf courses in their lifetime to know what's good design and what isn't. I'm not saying Zac will or won't become a proficient architect and course designer one day, but I think there is this prevailing romanticism pro golfers have that they can design courses better than those that have gone before them and those doing it professionally now simply based on their playing experience.


As Mike Young would say, you're qualified when someone decides they will pay you to do it.  And by that definition, starting a project yourself and naming yourself as the designer is a grey area.


Everybody's got to start somewhere.  Lots of great designers started out as players with no knowledge of the nuts and bolts of golf course construction.  Look at all the golf writers who jump into consulting and design work with no more experience than the players they've scoffed at for doing the same thing.  [Some people think that's what I did, because they saw my name as a writer before they saw it as a designer ... but that's because I was getting my experience in the dirt before I'd say I was a designer.]



The problem with arguing about this is deciding what we are arguing about -- how we define what it means to "design a course."  There are many levels of "design," and ideally, decisions about the non-golf stuff would all have an impact on the best solutions for the golf holes themselves, but that only happens when someone is involved from bottom to top.  How much of this do you want to include as design:


1.  Deciding on the strategy of the golf holes
2.  Deciding on the routing and how the holes fit on the ground
3.  Drawing up the grading plan or directing the shapers to build the features in 3-D
4.  Figuring out how to handle all the drainage and where it goes
5.  Figuring out how to handle the environmental impact of putting a course on the site and what will work from a permitting standpoint.


Any golfer could design a course if #1 is all you mean by "design".  You probably drew out golf holes in 2-D when you were twelve years old.


Most golfers could design a course if #1 and #2 is all you mean.  Some designs will work far better than others in terms of the transitions between holes, but if you don't consider that part important, you've reduced it to #1 plus managing the scorecard.


Many designers delegate #4 and #5 to their associates or to outsiders, whether they are former PGA Tour pros or ASGCA members or not.  If you want to say you have to do #4 and #5, then there are a lot of famous architects who would have to be disqualified, which would be silly.


#3 is kind of the inflection point to me.  Real design has to be done in three dimensions.  If you rely on somebody else to do #3, they are going to have as big an impact on the "design" as you did, because the devil is in the details, and everything can be changed in the field.

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