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William_G

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2016, 11:07:43 AM »
Mike, those words describe my rounds at Bandon, Pacific, Old Mac, Trails, Punchbowl, Shorty's and the Preserve with 8 classmates last weekend

Tom, thank you for the insight
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Chris_Hufnagel

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2016, 11:13:34 AM »
The Sheep Ranch (or BallyBandon) is a special place - one of my favorite afternoons ever on a golf course.  I happy for the continued success and development of Bandon Dunes and wish Mr. Keiser, et al only the best – but I'm a little sad (maybe nostalgic) that what is there will be lost...

A handful of photos from a special day at a special place...








« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 11:31:23 AM by Chris_Hufnagel »
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George Pazin

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2016, 11:23:32 AM »
Quote from: Peter Pallotta on October 11, 2016, 02:51:51 PM


It is interesting, isn't it?  We praise the talent of the great designers, golden age and modern, and we revere their classic and top 100 courses, and we discuss constantly the genius of the routings and use of natural features, and we complain that professionals like Fazio don't honour/restore the original architect's intentions, and we celebrate the fun and challenge and options that top-flight architects/courses provide us, and we argue that in assessing the merits of a golf course qualities like flow and pace are as important as shot-values, and we debate the use of multiple tees and decry how modern technology is making great old courses obsolete -- and then after all of that the most well travelled amateurs amongst us seem just thrilled to bits to throw it all the window in a heartbeat, as if we don't really mean a single word we said about any of the above, and instead to hit golf shots from anywhere to anyplace and from any tee we choose, thus creating/inventing/improvising a golf course all on our own that we're apparently as happy to play as we are a carefully realized golf course designed by an acknowledged master.

I've never been there, to Bandon, but it does seem very strange to me. (It's something like playing a game a chess but deciding on the spot that pawns can move backwards and rooks diagonally and that knights can be queens whenever they feel like it; sure, it's still a game of some kind, but it isn't the game of chess.) Then again, so too does choosing different sets of tees for different holes during the same round of golf, which I'm told many do here -- as if our own sense of variety and challenge and options is superior to/preferred over that of the architect who designed the course and placed the blue or white or red tees at specific places for a specific purpose. To me, believing that while at the same time being here on this site filling the electronic ether with palaver about the skills of the great architects seems wholly inconsistent. It also seems that we should all simply admit that "We want what we want when we want it" is the underlying premise/value judgement of all our critiques.

Oh, needless to say, to each his own of course. How a man (or woman) plays a golf course is his/her own business, not mine. I'm only speaking theoretically, as a matter of principle as it were....

Peter


It's one course. It's not even a publicized course, at least not to 99+% of golfers. Is it wrong to have one unique place?
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2016, 11:29:00 AM »
Quote from: George Pazin on October 12, 2016, 11:23:32 AM
Quote from: Peter Pallotta on October 11, 2016, 02:51:51 PM


It is interesting, isn't it?  We praise the talent of the great designers, golden age and modern, and we revere their classic and top 100 courses, and we discuss constantly the genius of the routings and use of natural features, and we complain that professionals like Fazio don't honour/restore the original architect's intentions, and we celebrate the fun and challenge and options that top-flight architects/courses provide us, and we argue that in assessing the merits of a golf course qualities like flow and pace are as important as shot-values, and we debate the use of multiple tees and decry how modern technology is making great old courses obsolete -- and then after all of that the most well travelled amateurs amongst us seem just thrilled to bits to throw it all the window in a heartbeat, as if we don't really mean a single word we said about any of the above, and instead to hit golf shots from anywhere to anyplace and from any tee we choose, thus creating/inventing/improvising a golf course all on our own that we're apparently as happy to play as we are a carefully realized golf course designed by an acknowledged master.

I've never been there, to Bandon, but it does seem very strange to me. (It's something like playing a game a chess but deciding on the spot that pawns can move backwards and rooks diagonally and that knights can be queens whenever they feel like it; sure, it's still a game of some kind, but it isn't the game of chess.) Then again, so too does choosing different sets of tees for different holes during the same round of golf, which I'm told many do here -- as if our own sense of variety and challenge and options is superior to/preferred over that of the architect who designed the course and placed the blue or white or red tees at specific places for a specific purpose. To me, believing that while at the same time being here on this site filling the electronic ether with palaver about the skills of the great architects seems wholly inconsistent. It also seems that we should all simply admit that "We want what we want when we want it" is the underlying premise/value judgement of all our critiques.

Oh, needless to say, to each his own of course. How a man (or woman) plays a golf course is his/her own business, not mine. I'm only speaking theoretically, as a matter of principle as it were....

Peter


It's one course. It's not even a publicized course, at least not to 99+% of golfers. Is it wrong to have one unique place?


George,


I agree. Far better to have something unique. It should be left alone.
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Tim Weiman

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2016, 11:31:27 AM »
The course is only unique in that it gives golfers permission to be creative on where they choose to start a hole. Many of us have played cross country golf our entire lives, without going cross country for the privilege.

Just yesterday our group decided to stop whining about how the tees at our club are never moved and create our own layout.  What a novel idea, owning responsibility for your own enjoyment.
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2016, 12:11:00 PM »
Never played it, and will likely not get back before its gone.


The concept seems pretty neat and I already know the location is a 10, I think it'd be a shame to get rid of it...
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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2016, 12:21:10 PM »
It would be a far greater loss if Keiser wasn't allowed to maximize the profitability of his properties so he can continue building us more fantasy destinations. Shame on the dozen or so of you who jumped the fence and didn't pay in the first place. Gonna miss that.
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George Pazin

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2016, 01:37:32 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on October 12, 2016, 11:31:27 AM
The course is only unique in that it gives golfers permission to be creative on where they choose to start a hole. Many of us have played cross country golf our entire lives, without going cross country for the privilege.

Just yesterday our group decided to stop whining about how the tees at our club are never moved and create our own layout.  What a novel idea, owning responsibility for your own enjoyment.


Not a half bad thought, John.


The difference is, SR was designed specifically to accommodate such play. Most courses weren't. Simply teeing it up and playing cross country is different than what Tom did, at least to my understanding. I'm unfortunately not in a position to speak first hand as to the results.


I do hope someday Tom D writes something about his thinking behind SR. As much as I want to read the Pac Dunes book someday, I'd rather read a SR article. I don't think most will, but I would.


But I've always been a little off like that.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim Pitner

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2016, 01:41:42 PM »
Sorry to hear about the planned demise of Sheep Ranch--it's a special place and I look back very fondly on the one afternoon/early evening I spent there.  It's a unique experience that another course, however good, won't be able to match.  With that said, good luck to whoever ends up building there.  Obviously the site is world-class and should yield a spectacular course.
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Jim Franklin

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2016, 01:47:37 PM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on October 12, 2016, 10:35:50 AM
Quote from: Jim Franklin on October 12, 2016, 08:28:31 AM
I'm surprised Doak wouldn't be asked to design the course.


I'm not surprised.  Mike told me years ago when he hired us to design Old Macdonald, that whenever he finally got around to turning The Sheep Ranch into 18 holes, he would have to hire someone else for that, because I would already have done two courses at Bandon.


I don't think I would have had the heart to tear up the course myself, anyway.  It is a unique design, which is something every designer hopes to achieve but few ever attain.  We knew from the start it wouldn't be to everyone's tastes -- even Phil Friedman, our client, struggled with the idea that there was no set 18-hole routing.  But for a lot of people who played it, it held a special place in their hearts, and it's predictable that the posters here who are questioning it never went to play it for themselves.


I've known for years that the course would eventually be destroyed, because the present business model wasn't sustainable.  The sad part is that the business model we discussed at the beginning might well have worked -- a private facility with a small lodge, so that members could play the other courses in Bandon during the day, and start or end their days with a few holes over The Sheep Ranch.  But Mr. Keiser and Mr. Friedman never followed through with that concept, because Mike realized quickly that he would no longer be seen as the great champion of retail golf, if there was a cool private facility just a few minutes away that was off-limits to guests of his resort.


Years ago I asked if we could play a Renaissance Cup at The Sheep Ranch, but Mike declined.  He said if we did that, there would be more people opposed to him tearing it up eventually.  Perhaps I will see if we can play an event this winter.

Please keep me posted if you play an event there this winter.
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Mr Hurricane

William_G

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2016, 04:12:05 PM »
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It's all about the golf!

Tim Leahy

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2016, 05:24:37 PM »
Tom D, would you be open to recreating the SR experience somewhere else?
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Howard Riefs

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2016, 06:18:27 PM »
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"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Jim Tang

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2016, 07:57:41 PM »
I've been to Bandon three times but never to Sheep Ranch.  What is the land like at Sheep Ranch?  What parts of the Bandon property, if any, can the land be compared to?  Significant elevation changes or more flattish?
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Sam Kestin

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2016, 07:58:56 PM »
This is a crying shame as the few days I've spent at the Sheep Ranch were some of the most memorable of my golfing life.

It's one of the most unique golf experiences I can think of--and an opportunity to have an experience almost nobody ever gets to have (except those lucky enough to own their own private "hybrid" course). I'm not sure I could name a single property like it that isn't in someone's back yard.

I completely disagree with anyone who thinks that a love of course architecture and a love of a "Choose Your Own Adventure" golf course are somehow mutually exclusive. Part of my love for course architecture comes from the creativity involved in taking a blank canvas of land and "painting" something stimulating on it. It's an experience I hope to have in my life but if the closest I can ever get is to play a place like the Sheep Ranch--well, that was pretty close and I didn't even have to learn anything about irrigation and drainage!

Too many golf experiences feel the same. I raise my glass and toast the wonderful departure from the usual golf experience that is and was the Sheep Ranch. May someone be creative enough, bold enough and lucky enough to find an exhilarating piece of land upon which another incarnation of the concept can be built.
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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2016, 08:01:23 PM »
Why didn't Sheep Ranch make Golfweek's Top 100? Or did it?
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2016, 08:35:14 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on October 12, 2016, 08:01:23 PM
Why didn't Sheep Ranch make Golfweek's Top 100? Or did it?


Nobody would know how to rate it.  And besides, there is more to life than the rankings.
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BCowan

Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2016, 09:03:26 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on October 12, 2016, 11:31:27 AM
The course is only unique in that it gives golfers permission to be creative on where they choose to start a hole. Many of us have played cross country golf our entire lives, without going cross country for the privilege.

Just yesterday our group decided to stop whining about how the tees at our club are never moved and create our own layout.  What a novel idea, owning responsibility for your own enjoyment.

Do you ever have an off day?  well done
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Kalen Braley

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2016, 09:54:29 PM »
Quote from: William_G on October 12, 2016, 04:12:05 PM



William G, that looks an awfully lot like this.  Satans approved course?   ;D


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Jim Nugent

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2016, 10:50:07 PM »
Quote from: Michael Moore on October 11, 2016, 01:04:23 PM

Quote from: John Kavanaugh on July 12, 2006, 07:53:47 PM
I've said this before and I've been to Bandon and have zero interest in seeing the Sheep Ranch.  I am delighted to hear that it has become an overpriced tourist trap and take comfort that I will never go...The thought of playing a routing off the top of the head of some amateur architect pukens me . . .

I never tire of John hitting the nail on the head.

Correct me if I'm wrong: John has never played the Sheep Ranch. 

Many of those on this website who have played it, though, seem to love it. 

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Peter Flory

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2016, 12:52:40 AM »
Well, as a consolation, at least it's going to be replaced by a golf course (that should be top notch).  Not like it's being turned into condos.   
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Sean_A

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2016, 03:53:25 AM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on October 12, 2016, 08:01:23 PM
Why didn't Sheep Ranch make Golfweek's Top 100? Or did it?

The Sheep Ranch isn't a course, its a clever practice area or perhaps as Sam states; a golf experience.  That said, the idea of a golf experience is no small matter.  Most people traveling to upscale destinations are doing so for the experience. 

I have never been to Bandon and I am not overly enthusiastic about going.  However, if I were to go, after playing Old Mac the Sheep Ranch would be my second choice.  I would be very disappointed if I couldn't goof off on SR. Somebody mentioned it above and perhaps they have something, would an extra course provide incentive to stay an extra night or are the current options plenty enough to hold the attention of golfers for a week as it is?



Ciao
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 04:02:57 AM by Sean_A »
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New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Angela Moser

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2016, 08:18:37 AM »
LOL Kalen Braley.... that is an interesting theory.


I got lucky and played Sheep Ranch in 2011 with Tom and some of his friends. As someone who loves golf, I really appreciated the different concept and idea behind this. It is the same with the Loop... Tom has some crazy ideas and make it work really well. To me, it is not so much about the top notch look of the bunkers etc but a deeper thought of the routing, the hole, the way you play it, which shots you´ll need.


While the overall concept and follow through might not have worked out so well for Mr. Keiser, it has been an amazing experience for someone who likes golf and is interested in golf architecture. Personally, I think SR works best, when you play someone in Matchplay and the winner is choosing the next route/hole. Its fun and different!
Sad to see it go, but also understandable to rather add something that will pay off from the money stand point.


The ground at the coast is stunning, but it is different to the other courses. There are only a few ocean views and the ground behind the cliffs is more like a bowl before you get back higher.







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Thomas Dai

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2016, 10:47:06 AM »
I've never been to Bandon or SR, but if I had a suitable piece of land in my backyard and the £$€ to build and maintain my own course then based on what I've read and heard SR is the kind of course I'd be looking to have.


Playing the same regular style course all the time no matter how wonderful it may be does get boring after a while. But somewhere with the infinite variety of SR, well, wow!


Atb
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William_G

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2016, 10:52:54 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Dai on October 13, 2016, 10:47:06 AM
I've never been to Bandon or SR, but if I had a suitable piece of land in my backyard and the £$€ to build and maintain my own course then based on what I've read and heard SR is the kind of course I'd be looking to have.


Playing the same regular style course all the time no matter how wonderful it may be does get boring after a while. But somewhere with the infinite variety of SR, well, wow!


Atb

Wolf Point
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It's all about the golf!
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