[Tim Gavrich]

Have any studies been done about attitudes about golf course maintenance by generation? I wonder if Millennials are more open to less-manicured turf - at least off the fairways - than Baby Boomers. If so, then it stands to reason as the BBs "age out" of golf, pressure on superintendents to wring magical conditions, rather than sustainable ones, out of their budgets should ease, lowering costs.


This isn't a sexy or revolutionary notion, but I don't think there's one single paradigm-shifting idea that's going to "save" golf. It's got to be a bunch of little ones:

- Bigger fairways
- Shorter rough
- Less "maintained" (i.e. "watered") rough
- Less water used for irrigation
- Relaxed dress codes (for the record, I think the notion of the code is more off-putting than the content of the code...the Millennial generation still likes to look nice; we just don't love to be told what to do/not do)
- Millennial discounts on green fees (the concept of giving discounts to seniors but not people under, say, 30, has always seemed a little odd; I would think businesses would want to give younger people a break to get them on the proverbial teat)

Another aspect to this is that golf (equipment in particular) equipment is still marketed pretty exclusively toward the entrenched, "traditional" audience. The first impressions of golf that people who weren't taught the game as kids have to golf continue to be that it's a mostly white, male, traditional/conservative, affluent space. Now, those may not be the defining characteristics of the game/community we know, but I think it's what people outside the golf community see.


Again, I don't think there's an overnight solution to this perception gap. It's got to be a lot of small deeds and a tendency to err on the side of patience and compassion and empathy around "non-traditional" golfers.

[Josh Tarble]

I can't wait until golf is so dead that every top 100 course in America is begging me to become a member.

[BHoover]

I can't wait until golf is so dead that every top 100 course in America is begging me to become a member.

That's out-of-the-box thinking! #gamechanger

[Carl Nichols]

Have any studies been done about attitudes about golf course maintenance by generation? I wonder if Millennials are more open to less-manicured turf - at least off the fairways - than Baby Boomers. If so, then it stands to reason as the BBs "age out" of golf, pressure on superintendents to wring magical conditions, rather than sustainable ones, out of their budgets should ease, lowering costs.


This isn't a sexy or revolutionary notion, but I don't think there's one single paradigm-shifting idea that's going to "save" golf. It's got to be a bunch of little ones:

- Bigger fairways
- Shorter rough
- Less "maintained" (i.e. "watered") rough
- Less water used for irrigation
- Relaxed dress codes (for the record, I think the notion of the code is more off-putting than the content of the code...the Millennial generation still likes to look nice; we just don't love to be told what to do/not do)
- Millennial discounts on green fees (the concept of giving discounts to seniors but not people under, say, 30, has always seemed a little odd; I would think businesses would want to give younger people a break to get them on the proverbial teat)

Another aspect to this is that golf (equipment in particular) equipment is still marketed pretty exclusively toward the entrenched, "traditional" audience. The first impressions of golf that people who weren't taught the game as kids have to golf continue to be that it's a mostly white, male, traditional/conservative, affluent space. Now, those may not be the defining characteristics of the game/community we know, but I think it's what people outside the golf community see.


Again, I don't think there's an overnight solution to this perception gap. It's got to be a lot of small deeds and a tendency to err on the side of patience and compassion and empathy around "non-traditional" golfers.

Tim--
I don't know about any such studies.  The only thing I can offer is my experience that the youngest members at our club have been by far the most critical (loudly so) when course conditions have struggled. 

[Kalen Braley]

Very interesting thread and one that I've given thought to as well.


IMO, Jason and Kyle are both terrifically on point here with thier posts. Golf has so many fronts its trying to battle right now: Social, Financial, Cultural, Demograhics, etc.  Seems an act in futility to resist so much change.

I think another point that hasn't really been addressed enough is the younger generation has so many other distractions than they did just 30 years ago.  Then throw in the fact that they are getting a much smaller piece of the pie, feel alienated by economic and political conditions, and golf is super low down the list of priorities for public play alone, much less to join a club.  Additionally, many of them feel golf is a waste of resources from an environmental standpoint.

Throw in rising land costs and course maintenance costs, with overpriced Green fees and it feels like we're ripe for the golf version of the "Big Short".  And to boot the industry ...including most here are in massive denial.  If history tells us anything it'll have to get much much worse before a coordinated effort is put together to turn it around.

[John_Cullum]

I was told that dress codes and similar standards of conduct are how you show respect to the game.

You were told right.  It's shows how much GCA.com has gone down hill.  One doesn't have to have money to dress like they care.  Demise of culture.

It's pretty ridiculous to ask people in any athletic pursuit to wear full dress slacks and a cotton shirt with a collar. That's the problem. I don't advocate to dress like a slob, but when a mock turtle-neck and shorts are "offensive to culture" I cry foul.

Please, that is the stupidest post this year.  It's so athletic guys need to wear shorts. Please. Face palm

No.

It's because it is ridiculous to demand grown men and women dress a certain way in 2016. Perhaps it made sense in 1890 when there was a large level of gentrification and social financial class meant something. In this day and age it doesn't. Take a look around you and see how much behavior and self-expression that even 20 years ago was marginalized is now mainstream. The culture around golf is preserving a dying standard and the so-called Millennials are seeing through that for the nonsense it is.

We are crying here that golf needs fresh ideas and new minds to survive, but we only want those ideas from people that are willing to think like we do. Here's a hint, rational people turn away from golf because of nonsense like that.

Did anyone ever stop to think that golf seems to struggle because the requirements to play at most facilities are so outlandishly ridiculous to the modern person? Pay a lot and dress a certain way. Why bother? Why bother when I can wear a t-shirt and denim to TopGolf?

Is denim really offensive? Doesn't it seem a little small-minded to be offended by someone's dress?

Now, if you don't want those kinds of people, have at it. But don't complain when golf goes the way of fox hunting.

No u are talking about different thing dress and financial idiocy of clubs with models that are idiotic.

I've fought hard on here for individual membership model where everyone is equal and pays the same amount.  Have talked extensively how GM and idiot members have doubled size of clubhouse and spend money wasteful and created huge debt.

I don't want golf to turn into football and soccer. I'd soon shut clus down. Most Millenials are in debt up the ass. 

Top golf with go belly up just like the new development signs I pass wit zero money down boards.  2008 never happen, yet we are going to listen to yuppie uninformed hipsters that golf need to honor and support derilicts as a noble jester.

It isn't small minded to be offended, it's small minded not to be offended, u don't see the big picture yet you think u grasp it well.  It's the clubhouse money pit and family model which 98% of private clubs go by.  Please go to top golf, have no desire to be by those people. Have introduced many to the game, helped run clinics with kids.  What have u done again?

Ben,
I would like to know your age. I ask because I know Kyle quite well and I know his, but I really only know you through your posting here and on facebook (and I almost always concur with your take on things.) I am curious to know if there is much of a generational difference.

[Kyle Harris]

I was told that dress codes and similar standards of conduct are how you show respect to the game.

You were told right.  It's shows how much GCA.com has gone down hill.  One doesn't have to have money to dress like they care.  Demise of culture.

It's pretty ridiculous to ask people in any athletic pursuit to wear full dress slacks and a cotton shirt with a collar. That's the problem. I don't advocate to dress like a slob, but when a mock turtle-neck and shorts are "offensive to culture" I cry foul.

Please, that is the stupidest post this year.  It's so athletic guys need to wear shorts. Please. Face palm

No.

It's because it is ridiculous to demand grown men and women dress a certain way in 2016. Perhaps it made sense in 1890 when there was a large level of gentrification and social financial class meant something. In this day and age it doesn't. Take a look around you and see how much behavior and self-expression that even 20 years ago was marginalized is now mainstream. The culture around golf is preserving a dying standard and the so-called Millennials are seeing through that for the nonsense it is.

We are crying here that golf needs fresh ideas and new minds to survive, but we only want those ideas from people that are willing to think like we do. Here's a hint, rational people turn away from golf because of nonsense like that.

Did anyone ever stop to think that golf seems to struggle because the requirements to play at most facilities are so outlandishly ridiculous to the modern person? Pay a lot and dress a certain way. Why bother? Why bother when I can wear a t-shirt and denim to TopGolf?

Is denim really offensive? Doesn't it seem a little small-minded to be offended by someone's dress?

Now, if you don't want those kinds of people, have at it. But don't complain when golf goes the way of fox hunting.

No u are talking about different thing dress and financial idiocy of clubs with models that are idiotic.

I've fought hard on here for individual membership model where everyone is equal and pays the same amount.  Have talked extensively how GM and idiot members have doubled size of clubhouse and spend money wasteful and created huge debt.

I don't want golf to turn into football and soccer. I'd soon shut clus down. Most Millenials are in debt up the ass. 

Top golf with go belly up just like the new development signs I pass wit zero money down boards.  2008 never happen, yet we are going to listen to yuppie uninformed hipsters that golf need to honor and support derilicts as a noble jester.

It isn't small minded to be offended, it's small minded not to be offended, u don't see the big picture yet you think u grasp it well.  It's the clubhouse money pit and family model which 98% of private clubs go by.  Please go to top golf, have no desire to be by those people. Have introduced many to the game, helped run clinics with kids.  What have u done again?

Ben,
I would like to know your age. I ask because I know Kyle quite well and I know his, but I really only know you through your posting here and on facebook (and I almost always concur with your take on things.) I am curious to know if there is much of a generational difference.

I know what was under those rain paints. Glad to see your river house fared well last week.

[Tom_Doak]

All this arguing about what will appeal to Millennials, I don't get.


You're all believers in the free market, right?  Why does everyone talk like the ENTIRE GOLF INDUSTRY has to change, then?  Why not just find one golf course and enact all the changes you are talking about and see if you can demonstrate financial success that way?


The golf business is chock full of stuffy dudes who are slow to change in every respect.  Trail-blazers they ain't.  But many of them are going broke, and they might loosen up a little bit if they see someone else succeeding on an unconventional path.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

All this arguing about what will appeal to Millennials, I don't get.


You're all believers in the free market, right?  Why does everyone talk like the ENTIRE GOLF INDUSTRY has to change, then?  Why not just find one golf course and enact all the changes you are talking about and see if you can demonstrate financial success that way?


The golf business is chock full of stuffy dudes who are slow to change in every respect.  Trail-blazers they ain't.  But many of them are going broke, and they might loosen up a little bit if they see someone else succeeding on an unconventional path.

Tom,

I'd love to hear your take on a private golf model that would work - type of design, maintenance budget, etc. Don't want to put you on the spot but sincerely interested in your ideas based on all that you've seen.

[Mark Pavy]

All this arguing about what will appeal to Millennials, I don't get.


You're all believers in the free market, right?  Why does everyone talk like the ENTIRE GOLF INDUSTRY has to change, then?  Why not just find one golf course and enact all the changes you are talking about and see if you can demonstrate financial success that way?


The golf business is chock full of stuffy dudes who are slow to change in every respect.  Trail-blazers they ain't.  But many of them are going broke, and they might loosen up a little bit if they see someone else succeeding on an unconventional path.

Tom,

That course already exists, do you have an interest in seeing it?

[Jason Thurman]

Jason,




How blinded by reality are you by the recent closing of a course that you loved?

I’m 100% blinded. I don’t know how golf survives when >75% of its courses may in the near future find the land they occupy to be worth double what even a successful course is worth as a business.

Jason,


 
Cost of maintenance goes up every time we insist on 7500 tees and retrofit the 6400 yard charmers that have become obsolete.  Gas prices are higher, grass seed, fertilizer, etc are not going to go higher in the foreseeable future.  Healthcare for workers - up 40-60% for the last 2-3 years (in the US).  We have to pay this when we buy a round public or private.
   •   Cost of play goes hand in hand with the other increases above.  I don't see it going down.
   •   Time to play - Another nice bonus we get when we retrofit or build 7500 courses.  Double ditto for neighborhood courses where only a cart will get you around in 4.4 hours with three sub 10 handicaps.


On the other hand, eBay has made equipment much cheaper than 15 years ago, also Craigslist.  Apparently costco has done the same.  it's never been cheaper to join a private.


Competition has made public the cheapest it's ever been when compared to wages of the same time per decade.  Too many courses per capita has kept costs in check.  Geez, I just got a pair of Footboy Icon Black online for $119 no shipping, those are $290 shoes 12 months ago.  TGW has made clothing dirt cheap.


I submit that golf has never been cheaper, but taken longer to play

Joe, you hit on a few of the factors that might be making this downturn in golf different from previous ones. In the past the game has ebbed and flowed with the economy. But as the economy has slowly recovered over the last 8 years, golf hasn’t really followed suit the way it has in the past. Some of that may be the result of slowness of this specific economic recovery and the way that it hasn’t necessarily improved things for the middle class, but I wonder if some of it has to do with the fact that the game has just outgrown its own practicality. Multi-piece balls and modern equipment require more length. More length means more acreage and more maintained turf. Expenditures are higher for a multitude of reasons, many of which you outline.


 


Meanwhile, all this evolution in the game hasn’t actually made for a better product, at least for 9/10 rounds played. Even with all the extra money spent on land acquisition, construction, conditioning, marketing, service, and amenities, a round of golf in 2016 isn’t appreciably more fun than a round of golf in 1990. I wasn’t around in 1950, but I doubt the game was any less fun then either.


 


The other thing that’s different now? We just have a lot more options when it comes to recreation. There’s a real opportunity cost in spending five hours on a golf course in 2016. Golf may not have improved in the last 65 years, but plenty of recreational options have while plenty of entirely new options have emerged as well. Golf, like every other recreational activity I can think of, has evolved fairly rapidly throughout the course of its history. For the last 30+ years, it has rapidly evolved in an unsustainable direction that hasn't made the game better. That trend can be reversed. I just don’t know if it will be reversed.






To Tom Doak's final point in his last post, there are already people finding a profitable if unconventional path in the golf industry. I'm literally heading to Topgolf again as soon as I click Post. I started a thread about a month ago to rave about it and mostly being a trolling asshole, but there's a lot to be said for how their model eliminates a lot of the worst things about golf (searching for balls, time it takes to play, cost barrier to entry, cultural barrier to entry, embarrassment-at-lack-of-skill barrier to entry, waiting on other groups, cost of maintenance and water) while preserving a lot of the best things about it (the social element, the fun of hitting a ball with a stick, the opportunity to drink while playing a "sport"). Topgolf isn't golf and it isn't going to replace golf. But I have to believe people who find creative solutions to those same problems on real courses while preserving those same elements of fun will ultimately be rewarded for it.

[Mike_Young]

There is no demise of the game.  The demise is in the business. 

[Steve Lang]

   South Park Millenials go forth, your ADD and snowflake existence is so fleeting, you will never have it all, total conscience sitting by the river, contemplating the navel's presence as the river of life gurgles by and you melt into the flow is your apparent fate, definitely no time for golf.  IF so, quit whining or play on!


THE KING IS DEAD, LONG LIVE THE KING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Terry Lavin]

Here in the US, corporate and high end golf has lost millenial business to Top Golf and Costco.  Politically the same demographic laments the loss of a guy who wanted to give everything away for free while starting a revolution.  Or they're drawn to a guy who promises a revolution if he isn't elected and allowed to put his opponent in jail.

Maybe, just maybe, it's too early to tell if they'll come back around when they get a bit older.

[Kalen Braley]

Terry,


That may sound good on paper, but the reality is Clinton still has a massive lead among Millenials who have picked a candidate and are likely to vote.  The only thing keeping Trump afloat is 40 something and older white males.  Hillary leads pretty much every other demographic.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

As I say frequently-


Golf is a hard game and golf is a tough business--play and work at your own risk.


IT exists in most places and in most forms--GO FIND IT.


GOLF IS NOT FOR EVERYONE, and every facility doesn't deserve to exist. Every golfer doesn't deserve to exist, every golf pro doesn't deserve to exist, architect, store, clothing line, etc.


Golf fails--has failed all over the place--it's what it does.


To the OP---keep buying those KIRKLAND balls--instead of supporting YOUR LOCAL CLUB PROFESSIONAL or FACILITY. Does anyone else see the irony of this thread?


While I'm hot...How bout you all relax with appealing to the hipster deal--it's a bullshit fad. Golf is a sophisticated game--it's really not meant for those who don't grasp "dress code". If one of said generation has an issue with dressing with a collar, and they like golf--then I suspect they will find a golf course that does not require one. Furthermore, most BEGINNERS start at facilities that do not require a collar.


Time--if you love something-you will make time and find the RIGHT time to love it.


My father, played golf routinely this summer at Kissena in NYC teeing off at 5:15am. He was home for my mother who was battling an illness before she woke up. (They played through the maintenance crew--Kissena gives them permission--I know, how dare they play through the crew )


No worrying about golf from me--and I actually have skin in the game because I make my living in GOLF.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Jason,




How blinded by reality are you by the recent closing of a course that you loved?

I’m 100% blinded. I don’t know how golf survives when >75% of its courses may in the near future find the land they occupy to be worth double what even a successful course is worth as a business.

Jason,


 
Cost of maintenance goes up every time we insist on 7500 tees and retrofit the 6400 yard charmers that have become obsolete.  Gas prices are higher, grass seed, fertilizer, etc are not going to go higher in the foreseeable future.  Healthcare for workers - up 40-60% for the last 2-3 years (in the US).  We have to pay this when we buy a round public or private.
   •   Cost of play goes hand in hand with the other increases above.  I don't see it going down.
   •   Time to play - Another nice bonus we get when we retrofit or build 7500 courses.  Double ditto for neighborhood courses where only a cart will get you around in 4.4 hours with three sub 10 handicaps.


On the other hand, eBay has made equipment much cheaper than 15 years ago, also Craigslist.  Apparently costco has done the same.  it's never been cheaper to join a private.


Competition has made public the cheapest it's ever been when compared to wages of the same time per decade.  Too many courses per capita has kept costs in check.  Geez, I just got a pair of Footboy Icon Black online for $119 no shipping, those are $290 shoes 12 months ago.  TGW has made clothing dirt cheap.


I submit that golf has never been cheaper, but taken longer to play

Joe, you hit on a few of the factors that might be making this downturn in golf different from previous ones. In the past the game has ebbed and flowed with the economy. But as the economy has slowly recovered over the last 8 years, golf hasn’t really followed suit the way it has in the past. Some of that may be the result of slowness of this specific economic recovery and the way that it hasn’t necessarily improved things for the middle class, but I wonder if some of it has to do with the fact that the game has just outgrown its own practicality. Multi-piece balls and modern equipment require more length. More length means more acreage and more maintained turf. Expenditures are higher for a multitude of reasons, many of which you outline.


 


Meanwhile, all this evolution in the game hasn’t actually made for a better product, at least for 9/10 rounds played. Even with all the extra money spent on land acquisition, construction, conditioning, marketing, service, and amenities, a round of golf in 2016 isn’t appreciably more fun than a round of golf in 1990. I wasn’t around in 1950, but I doubt the game was any less fun then either.


 


The other thing that’s different now? We just have a lot more options when it comes to recreation. There’s a real opportunity cost in spending five hours on a golf course in 2016. Golf may not have improved in the last 65 years, but plenty of recreational options have while plenty of entirely new options have emerged as well. Golf, like every other recreational activity I can think of, has evolved fairly rapidly throughout the course of its history. For the last 30+ years, it has rapidly evolved in an unsustainable direction that hasn't made the game better. That trend can be reversed. I just don’t know if it will be reversed.






To Tom Doak's final point in his last post, there are already people finding a profitable if unconventional path in the golf industry. I'm literally heading to Topgolf again as soon as I click Post. I started a thread about a month ago to rave about it and mostly being a trolling asshole, but there's a lot to be said for how their model eliminates a lot of the worst things about golf (searching for balls, time it takes to play, cost barrier to entry, cultural barrier to entry, embarrassment-at-lack-of-skill barrier to entry, waiting on other groups, cost of maintenance and water) while preserving a lot of the best things about it (the social element, the fun of hitting a ball with a stick, the opportunity to drink while playing a "sport"). Topgolf isn't golf and it isn't going to replace golf. But I have to believe people who find creative solutions to those same problems on real courses while preserving those same elements of fun will ultimately be rewarded for it.

Jason Thurman-
Care to elaborate on the cultural barrier to entry in golf?


How much money did you spend at Top Golf?

[Peter Pallotta]

M Sweeney - fine post #90 there. This thread has reminded me of several things:

1. Don't Whine.
2. Prioritize my time.
3. Find that which I love, and stick with it.
4. Support what I believe in.
5. Don't believe the hype, or the despair.
6. Play it the way I want to.

Thanks. With reminders like this, and with a little more effort on my part, I may finally grow up into a full-fledged adult!

[JESII]

The other thing that’s different now? We just have a lot more options when it comes to recreation. There’s a real opportunity cost in spending five hours on a golf course in 2016. Golf may not have improved in the last 65 years, but plenty of recreational options have while plenty of entirely new options have emerged as well. Golf, like every other recreational activity I can think of, has evolved fairly rapidly throughout the course of its history. For the last 30+ years, it has rapidly evolved in an unsustainable direction that hasn't made the game better. That trend can be reversed. I just don’t know if it will be reversed.

Emphasis on that sentence is mine...and the question is, like what?


I'm 41, married with 4 kids between 10 and 13. I've played golf most all of my life and think golf is only dying in areas where people haven't introduced the right version of true golf...and TopGolf is not it.


I have friends that play pick up basketball, hunt, fish, travel with their families, coach kids sports, volunteer, hike, one that rides long distance tandem bike races with his wife (true...) and probably a dozen others...Which should I see as the additional recreational options that will threaten golf participation numbers?


I wonder if I took a snapshot of golf participation numbers at 20 year intervals, as opposed to 1 year, you would agree that growth has slowed instead of actual numbers decreasing...


Either way, I suspect we're on the back side of a contraction that will stabilize and find it's level. I don't think it will escalate at the 1995 - 2005 rate again because all facets of The Game really do carry significant costs as a barrier to entry.

[Kalen Braley]

P.S.  I played TopGolf for the first time a few weeks ago.  If its going to survive, they need to work out the kinks.  The mechanisms, scoring, and user interface was more buggy than an abandoned cabin in the woods.

[Mike Sweeney]

I wonder if I took a snapshot of golf participation numbers at 20 year intervals, as opposed to 1 year, you would agree that growth has slowed instead of actual numbers decreasing...

Here we go:





http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/the-death-of-golf-20150625


By any measure, participation in the game is way off, from a high of 30.6 million golfers in 2003 to 24.7 million in 2014, according to the National Golf Foundation (NGF). The long-term trends are also troubling, with the number of golfers ages 18 to 34 showing a 30 percent decline over the last 20 years. Nearly every metric — TV ratings, rounds played, golf-equipment sales, golf courses constructed — shows a drop-off. "I look forward to a time when we've got the wind at our back, but that's not what we're expecting," says Oliver "Chip" Brewer, president and CEO of Callaway. "This is a demographic challenge."

[Kalen Braley]

I don't understand the notion that the younger generation not picking up the game is no big deal...


By my math, that will eventually lead to the death of the game, even if it is a slow, lingering, painful one...

[Peter Pallotta]

Jim - you highlighted a key line/concept and then wrote a fine post. But I in turn would highlight a line of yours, ie about having played golf most all of your life. I think that (not cost) is the real 'barrier'. I can't think of another sporting pastime that non participants seem as reluctant to take up later in life. Talk about any other sport/game in mixed company and you'll get at least polite interest; talk about golf and you gets guffaws or stony silence. I've heard "That's not for me" more about giving golf a try than I have about paragliding, parachuting, snowboarding, zip lining,  motocrossing and skeet shooting combined. I have no idea why.

[JESII]

Because golf is at least a realistic activity for those people as opposed to all the others...

[Rich Goodale]

I played my first game since BUDA last weekend at a well known and respected resort (playing a great OGM course), and outside of me and my wife, nobody on the first tee was smiling, nor courteous when we engaged with them (mostly by walking up to them on the tee from which they had not yet to tee off).  At the halfway house they "REQUIRED" that we stop and rest/imbibe for 10 minutes, (which ended up to be 30 minutes).  It was a great walk spoiled--not by the game but the players and the administrators.


As long as it continues to transmogrify from the game into a business golf as we know it is doomed.....


Have a nice day, everybody!


Rich

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