[Jason Thurman]

I've turned into one of the alarmists lately. I think golf is dying on the vine, and I think it's mostly doomed thanks to a combination of cost, time, failure on the part of the governing bodies, the political climate, the actual climate, and the demise of human decency. But what if I'm wrong?


Costco has just released a Kirkland brand urethane four-piece golf ball at a price point of ~$30 for 2 dozen. Reviews from GolfWRX are very positive, and the guys on GolfWRX know balls. I'm going to give it a shot - I already wear Kirkland or other Costco-sourced gloves, shorts, and shirts. And honestly, if I can't tell the difference between it and a ProV1 or ProV1x or Chrome Soft or whatever, I'll probably start using it. Once I found out about Kirkland brand vodka, I was a lifer.


Now, Costco isn't going to bring down the major manufacturers. But in a post-regulation equipment market where the manufacturers long ago basically maxed out ball speed, spin optimization, MOI, COR, and technology in general within the framework of the rules, the price of innovation isn't quite as expensive as it used to be. When legitimate manufacturers see an opportunity to make a profit by lowering the price point for performance and going after volume in a shrinking market, price points for equipment in general will (probably) slowly come down. And in doing so, the cost of entry to the game is reduced, and the cost of keeping quality equipment in the bag is also reduced, and there's an opportunity for the game to start growing organically again.


The handful of golfers that might be gained from that possible phenomenon won't necessarily save the game, but what if a similar phenomenon unfolded with golf course design? Strategic design is hot right now. Even if golf course architecture is still a subject that only dorks like us study and get especially excited about, everyone from the USGA to Matt Ginella & Co on Twitter is singing the praises of both Golden Age architecture and the concepts stressed by the post-1995 revolutionaries. And as those concepts take hold in the consciousness of golfers, the bar is slowly raised for playability and strategy and an emphasis on fun. And those playable, strategic, and fun courses might just motivate more people to take up the game. Right now, a lot of the courses that best exemplify the post-1995 "Second Golden Age" are also in remote locations, or very expensive, or very private. But as those playable, strategic, and fun values become the expectation of the ever-growing pool of savvy golfers who appreciate good courses the way they appreciate good craft, I think we'll see those values reflected in more and more new construction.


Oh, that's right. There would need to be more and more new construction for this to happen. I had almost talked myself into it there for a second, but reading back through it now I can't believe how full of crap that argument was. Sorry for the failed attempt at optimism guys.

[Matt MacIver]

I'll try to counter-punch - here's a weak right cross!: Millenials are health conscious, frugal and environmentally conscious. And these new courses promote walking, less water/cost and fun and/or challenge.  So local courses, as a last gasp before closing for housing, will turn off the water, trim down the rough, lower the cost and speed up play.  And golf will be saved!

[Kyle Harris]

Golf is not dying.

What is perhaps dying is the culture around golf that his been deeply rooted for several decades at this point.

I say good riddance to 80% of all that culture. Some may recall the backlash I received almost ten years ago about a thread I started here regarding dress codes and it's tie-in to golf architecture.

I was accused of weltschmerz. I was told that dress codes and similar standards of conduct are how you show respect to the game.

I still call B.S. on that. It's how you show subjugation to the places where the game is played along with other games such as tennis.

Frankly, no new construction needs to happen. We need a golfer with a sleeve tattoo hoisting a major championship trophy. Too bad Danny Willett had to put on a jacket. 

[BCowan]

I was told that dress codes and similar standards of conduct are how you show respect to the game.

You were told right.  It's shows how much GCA.com has gone down hill.  One doesn't have to have money to dress like they care.  Demise of culture. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Jason -

for some reason(s), your post reminded me of this:

He which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.

This day is call'd the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say "To-morrow is Saint Crispian."

Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say "These wounds I had on Crispin's day."
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words—
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester—
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.

This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

[Thomas Dai]

During the time that golf has been played the world has gone through numerous happenings....wars, famine, exploration, industrialisation, mass emigration/immigration, population increases. Even in the last 100 yrs or so there have been two World Wars, the Spanish Flu outbreak, farming catastrophes, the Great Depression and yet the game is still being played.


The world evolves and golf evolves as well. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Sometimes things are a bit more revolutionary than evolutionary but generally evolution prevails. And history has a habit of repeating itself.


Once upon a time players played in hobnail boots and probably wore them in the clubhouse as well. Once upon a time Professionals were bared from Clubhouses. Once upon a time small children were caddies (when they weren't  cleaning out chimneys!). Once upon a time greens were cut with scythes. Once upon a time golf balls smiled back at you if you caught a shot thin and prior to that they would float and clubs existed to hit shots from water. Now we have graphite, titanium, multi-piece golf balls, Goretex, a book with 30+ sections called the Rules of Golf and another even thicker book called the Decisions and people 'phone into TV stations from their lounges to comment on possible rules violations taking place thousands of miles away.


Funny old world it may be, but it keeps going round and round and golf keeps chugging along.


Atb


PS - Three Major winners with tattoo's - Danny Willett, Lee Trevino and Seve (although Seve got his later on). Any others?

[BHoover]

Jason -

for some reason(s), your post reminded me of this:

He which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.

This day is call'd the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say "To-morrow is Saint Crispian."

Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say "These wounds I had on Crispin's day."
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words—
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester—
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.

This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

Can you please tell us what reason it was that reminded you of this? I'm dying to know.

[Peter Pallotta]

Brian - I think because, like the King's cousin way back then, we all and always seem to want greater numbers, more people, as if on St Crispian's Day more men would've given them a better chance of beating the French and as if what the game needs today is more golfers. King Henry proved that it wasn't true then: they didn't need more men, they just needed the men they had to do their duty. And today, I am starting to think that John K is absolutely right: what the game needs is not 5 or 10 million more golfers or a new strategy for growth; what it needs instead is for those who already consider themselves golfers to do the right thing. If every person who loves the game and plays it with any regularity would join/become members of their local club and play most of their golf there and support their club pro, the game of golf would survive and even flourish for decades to come.

Peter   

[BHoover]

The problem, in my mind, is not that the courses I really want to play are destination courses. The problem, at least here in the US, is that golf is too expensive, too time-consuming, and too exclusive, even at the local club level.

Incomes in this country are stagnant (for most people), and many of us with families cannot spend 5-6 hours on the golf course on a Saturday or Sunday, to say nothing of playing during the week, which is damn near impossible for a working family with kids.

Until more courses develop an ala carte-type of membership option, where one can choose what offerings he/she wants at an affordable price, I just don't see things changing.

I'm going through this debate at home myself. I have two young children. At some point, I hope they decide to play golf, if for no other reason than it will allow me to play more frequently. But with the limited opportunities I have to play, it's difficult to justify the cost of a membership at my club, which is a golf-only club.

There is one club in my area that seems to be more akin to the UK model, good golf course, simple clubhouse, few frills, larger membership, and affordable. To join, one must reside in the school district in which the club is located. I don't know exact numbers, but I understand there is a significant waiting list. That is the type of club we need more of for golf to thrive.

[Ryan Coles]

I was told that dress codes and similar standards of conduct are how you show respect to the game.

You were told right.  It's shows how much GCA.com has gone down hill.  One doesn't have to have money to dress like they care.  Demise of culture.

Ben


I think its medication time. For both of you.

[Peter Pallotta]

Brian - I am in the same boat as you, and like you it is hard to justify a membership when it's a value if you play 60 rounds a summer and I can only play 25.  Some local courses have introduced flex passes and such, but the course I have in mind hurt itself (and lost members) several years ago after building a new clubhouse and going into debt after decades of being debt free.  In other words, I should revise my post above: yes, golfers need to start doing their duty, but clubs need to start exhibiting better leadership and good sense.

Peter

[Kyle Harris]

I was told that dress codes and similar standards of conduct are how you show respect to the game.

You were told right.  It's shows how much GCA.com has gone down hill.  One doesn't have to have money to dress like they care.  Demise of culture.

It's pretty ridiculous to ask people in any athletic pursuit to wear full dress slacks and a cotton shirt with a collar. That's the problem. I don't advocate to dress like a slob, but when a mock turtle-neck and shorts are "offensive to culture" I cry foul.

[BCowan]

I was told that dress codes and similar standards of conduct are how you show respect to the game.

You were told right.  It's shows how much GCA.com has gone down hill.  One doesn't have to have money to dress like they care.  Demise of culture.

Ben


I think its medication time. For both of you.

Ryan,

Thanks for the detailed reply.  When great people walk away from the game due to declining decency it's time we stop hey what's that sound everybody look what's going down.  U might wanna take a look at all the great posters who don't post anymore, these replys are why. 

[BCowan]

I was told that dress codes and similar standards of conduct are how you show respect to the game.

You were told right.  It's shows how much GCA.com has gone down hill.  One doesn't have to have money to dress like they care.  Demise of culture.

It's pretty ridiculous to ask people in any athletic pursuit to wear full dress slacks and a cotton shirt with a collar. That's the problem. I don't advocate to dress like a slob, but when a mock turtle-neck and shorts are "offensive to culture" I cry foul.

Please, that is the stupidest post this year.  It's so athletic guys need to wear shorts. Please. Face palm

[BCowan]

Brian - I am in the same boat as you, and like you it is hard to justify a membership when it's a value if you play 60 rounds a summer and I can only play 25.  Some local courses have introduced flex passes and such, but the course I have in mind hurt itself (and lost members) several years ago after building a new clubhouse and going into debt after decades of being debt free.  In other words, I should revise my post above: yes, golfers need to start doing their duty, but clubs need to start exhibiting better leadership and good sense.

Peter

+1,000, and going into debt for non course items is a dealth spiral. Especially since the clubhouse is a money pit which many don't comprehend on here.

[Sean_A]

Golf doesn't need anything to do with private courses to survive.  Every private course in the US could close and life would go on as normal for 90% of golfers.  Private clubs are a minority market that only works for a limited number of people...its always been that way and will always be that way. 


If you don't have time to play golf that is more about your situation than the situation of golf.  Sure, golf is often too slow, but one can play 9 holes to suit a schedule.  If folks can't hack public courses in the US, then you are in serious trouble because the US has the best public courses in terms of quality, quantity, price, location, diversity, price point...pick a criteria and the US is awesome for public golf. Name me any place in the world that comes remotely close to what public golf in the US offers. 


No, the problem isn't private clubs or public courses. 


No the problem isn't dress codes...frankly...that sounds ridiculous. Dress codes are in the main private club issues...doesn't matter a tosh in the big scheme of things. 


You lot have to do better than that to kill and bury golf...yer not even close.  We can kill and bury millions more golfers before we come close to killing golf.   


I think the big problem for many on this site (me included) and many in the media, is that we want our cake and to eat it too.  We want good private golf, that isn't crowded with a decent house, close to home and all for $150 a month...and many more on this site want far more than that!   We are like the folks in the wine shop who have been exposed to fine wine, developed a taste for fine wine, but don't have the salary to support their knowledge.  Stick to what works for your budget and time constraints...and be content...all will be well.


Ciao


Ciao

[Niall C]

I'm absolutely certain that golf will still be played a hundred years from now. However will it still be played in the same manner and therefore will it still be the same game, I'm not so sure. When professional golfers mimic  a footballer who has scored a goal every time they sink a putt, golf galleries start acting like football crowds. Those same galleries and those watching on TV then take an element of that behaviour on to the course with them. All to the detriment of the game IMO.

Niall

[Tim_Weiman]

The problem, in my mind, is not that the courses I really want to play are destination courses. The problem, at least here in the US, is that golf is too expensive, too time-consuming, and too exclusive, even at the local club level.

Incomes in this country are stagnant (for most people), and many of us with families cannot spend 5-6 hours on the golf course on a Saturday or Sunday, to say nothing of playing during the week, which is damn near impossible for a working family with kids.

Until more courses develop an ala carte-type of membership option, where one can choose what offerings he/she wants at an affordable price, I just don't see things changing.

I'm going through this debate at home myself. I have two young children. At some point, I hope they decide to play golf, if for no other reason than it will allow me to play more frequently. But with the limited opportunities I have to play, it's difficult to justify the cost of a membership at my club, which is a golf-only club.

There is one club in my area that seems to be more akin to the UK model, good golf course, simple clubhouse, few frills, larger membership, and affordable. To join, one must reside in the school district in which the club is located. I don't know exact numbers, but I understand there is a significant waiting list. That is the type of club we need more of for golf to thrive.

Brian,


I know you are familiar with golf in Cleveland. There are two courses that are worth noting that we would never discuss here at GolfClubAltas.com:


Little Met
Mastick Woods


IMO, they are worth studying. They are what golf in America needs. Affordable places for young people to learn the game.


But, sadly, I don't know if anyone would ever build such courses or whether the economics would work (green fees <$10).

[BHoover]

Thank you, Tim. When I am back home and can play some golf, I will try to play these courses. I do know that the Cleveland Metroparks feature some good golf. A very valuable asset.

[Tom_Doak]

Little Met
Mastick Woods


IMO, they are worth studying. They are what golf in America needs. Affordable places for young people to learn the game.


But, sadly, I don't know if anyone would ever build such courses or whether the economics would work (green fees <$10).

Tim:


You don't need to build any new facilities for that.  You just need for operators of existing facilities to make them available at affordable prices for young people to learn the game.  Some do; others don't, and they will rue that mistake a few years from now.

[Ben Kodadek]

There is one club in my area that seems to be more akin to the UK model, good golf course, simple clubhouse, few frills, larger membership, and affordable. To join, one must reside in the school district in which the club is located. I don't know exact numbers, but I understand there is a significant waiting list. That is the type of club we need more of for golf to thrive.

What club are you referring to?

[Kyle Harris]

I was told that dress codes and similar standards of conduct are how you show respect to the game.

You were told right.  It's shows how much GCA.com has gone down hill.  One doesn't have to have money to dress like they care.  Demise of culture.

It's pretty ridiculous to ask people in any athletic pursuit to wear full dress slacks and a cotton shirt with a collar. That's the problem. I don't advocate to dress like a slob, but when a mock turtle-neck and shorts are "offensive to culture" I cry foul.

Please, that is the stupidest post this year.  It's so athletic guys need to wear shorts. Please. Face palm

No.

It's because it is ridiculous to demand grown men and women dress a certain way in 2016. Perhaps it made sense in 1890 when there was a large level of gentrification and social financial class meant something. In this day and age it doesn't. Take a look around you and see how much behavior and self-expression that even 20 years ago was marginalized is now mainstream. The culture around golf is preserving a dying standard and the so-called Millennials are seeing through that for the nonsense it is.

We are crying here that golf needs fresh ideas and new minds to survive, but we only want those ideas from people that are willing to think like we do. Here's a hint, rational people turn away from golf because of nonsense like that.

Did anyone ever stop to think that golf seems to struggle because the requirements to play at most facilities are so outlandishly ridiculous to the modern person? Pay a lot and dress a certain way. Why bother? Why bother when I can wear a t-shirt and denim to TopGolf?

Is denim really offensive? Doesn't it seem a little small-minded to be offended by someone's dress?

Now, if you don't want those kinds of people, have at it. But don't complain when golf goes the way of fox hunting.

[BHoover]

There is one club in my area that seems to be more akin to the UK model, good golf course, simple clubhouse, few frills, larger membership, and affordable. To join, one must reside in the school district in which the club is located. I don't know exact numbers, but I understand there is a significant waiting list. That is the type of club we need more of for golf to thrive.

What club are you referring to?

Check your PM.

[Tom Allen]

. . . PS - Three Major winners with tattoo's - Danny Willett, Lee Trevino and Seve (although Seve got his later on). Any others?

Bubba.

[BCowan]

I was told that dress codes and similar standards of conduct are how you show respect to the game.

You were told right.  It's shows how much GCA.com has gone down hill.  One doesn't have to have money to dress like they care.  Demise of culture.

It's pretty ridiculous to ask people in any athletic pursuit to wear full dress slacks and a cotton shirt with a collar. That's the problem. I don't advocate to dress like a slob, but when a mock turtle-neck and shorts are "offensive to culture" I cry foul.

Please, that is the stupidest post this year.  It's so athletic guys need to wear shorts. Please. Face palm

No.

It's because it is ridiculous to demand grown men and women dress a certain way in 2016. Perhaps it made sense in 1890 when there was a large level of gentrification and social financial class meant something. In this day and age it doesn't. Take a look around you and see how much behavior and self-expression that even 20 years ago was marginalized is now mainstream. The culture around golf is preserving a dying standard and the so-called Millennials are seeing through that for the nonsense it is.

We are crying here that golf needs fresh ideas and new minds to survive, but we only want those ideas from people that are willing to think like we do. Here's a hint, rational people turn away from golf because of nonsense like that.

Did anyone ever stop to think that golf seems to struggle because the requirements to play at most facilities are so outlandishly ridiculous to the modern person? Pay a lot and dress a certain way. Why bother? Why bother when I can wear a t-shirt and denim to TopGolf?

Is denim really offensive? Doesn't it seem a little small-minded to be offended by someone's dress?

Now, if you don't want those kinds of people, have at it. But don't complain when golf goes the way of fox hunting.

No u are talking about different thing dress and financial idiocy of clubs with models that are idiotic.

I've fought hard on here for individual membership model where everyone is equal and pays the same amount.  Have talked extensively how GM and idiot members have doubled size of clubhouse and spend money wasteful and created huge debt.

I don't want golf to turn into football and soccer. I'd soon shut clus down. Most Millenials are in debt up the ass. 

Top golf with go belly up just like the new development signs I pass wit zero money down boards.  2008 never happen, yet we are going to listen to yuppie uninformed hipsters that golf need to honor and support derilicts as a noble jester.

It isn't small minded to be offended, it's small minded not to be offended, u don't see the big picture yet you think u grasp it well.  It's the clubhouse money pit and family model which 98% of private clubs go by.  Please go to top golf, have no desire to be by those people. Have introduced many to the game, helped run clinics with kids.  What have u done again?

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