I played Garden City Golf Club last Friday and I have a question about #12

[Mark Greer]

I understand Tom Doak restored that hole.  To the right of the green, there is a "bunker" that is more like a dome.  I've not experienced this before.  Does it have a name?  To me, a bunker is a hollowed out area with sand or grass.  This is elevated.  Pretty cool feature and a very good hole. 

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:


The feature does not have a name, as far as I'm aware.


You used to see this some on turn-of-the-century courses.  National Golf Links #17 had a big sand mound in front of the green ... there is more grass on it now.  Generally, a pure sand mound does not hold up well to winds etc, so these features go away over time.  The mound at Garden City is actually built mostly out of fill dirt and gravel, with only a bit of sand over the top of it, so it will hold its form over time.

[Mark Greer]

Mark:


The feature does not have a name, as far as I'm aware.


You used to see this some on turn-of-the-century courses.  National Golf Links #17 had a big sand mound in front of the green ... there is more grass on it now.  Generally, a pure sand mound does not hold up well to winds etc, so these features go away over time.  The mound at Garden City is actually built mostly out of fill dirt and gravel, with only a bit of sand over the top of it, so it will hold its form over time.

Tom, thanks for the info.  I actually played NGLA on Sunday and loved the Leven hole.  It's a wonderful hole and as you said, there is a lot of grass on that sand mound.  I took a pic but unfortuately it's from the tee and is difficult to see here.  Bahto's book has a great pic of it however. Thanks again.

[MCirba]

There were some in evidence at early Merion and Seaview, as well.   I'm not sure if it's accurate but I've always just called them inverse or convex bunkers.

[Mark McKeever]

Tom, is the sand fluffy enough to keep the ball on the side of the slopes, plug, etc.?


Mark

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, is the sand fluffy enough to keep the ball on the side of the slopes, plug, etc.?

Generally, tee shots bounce or roll off the mound to the base, and the hazard just makes you pitch over the mound.  But if a couple of people leave a short shot up on the mound, and go up to play it, then their footprints start to make other balls stick, too.


We thought about having some hazards like this on The Loop, because you can see them from all directions ... but wound up not going that way.

[William_G]

FWIW those mounds of sand are not only on 12 but a couple other holes...did not check how they play

[MCirba]

Travis used elsewhere if memory serves.  Perhaps Ed Homsey will weigh in.

[Jordan Standefer]

#7 on Streamsong Red has a similar feature protecting the green, although a little less maintained.

[Mark Greer]

#7 on Streamsong Red has a similar feature protecting the green, although a little less maintained.

#7 at Streamsong Red is similar but those are more natural looking sand dunes.  And I don't think they are maintained on any regular basis.  And I didn't recall seeing rakes.  Whereas the mounds at GCGC are without grass and maintained and raked by maintenance.  Regardless, the both look great and are nice, unique features which aren't encountered much.  #& Steamsong Red....

[Mark Kiely]

I played Eagle Falls (Clive Clark) in Indio a couple weeks ago and encountered something similar, although it was within a larger bunker. It was my first time playing the course, so my initial instinct was that they were doing maintenance on that bunker and adding sand, but my friend who plays there regularly says he thinks it's always like this.


IMG_20160920_083521738 by Mark, on Flickr


IMG_20160920_084050374 by Mark, on Flickr

[Jim Franklin]

#7 on Streamsong Red has a similar feature protecting the green, although a little less maintained.

#7 at Streamsong Red is similar but those are more natural looking sand dunes.  And I don't think they are maintained on any regular basis.  And I didn't recall seeing rakes.  Whereas the mounds at GCGC are without grass and maintained and raked by maintenance.  Regardless, the both look great and are nice, unique features which aren't encountered much.  #& Steamsong Red....

Made a 3 here. Loved the hole  .

[David_Tepper]

Out of curiosity, are the sandy areas at Garden City and Streamsong pictured here treated as hazards or as waste areas?

[Joey Chase]

Every time I played both Garden City and National the guys I played with referred to the features as inverted bunkers fwiw.

[Peter Pallotta]

Hmmm.
As the term (inverted bunker) itself suggests, this strikes me as too intellectual/academic a feature: studied and almost self referential, it seems the early work of some too-earnest disciple still too much in awe of his idol. On a flattish site especially, the feature also seems to speak of an architect trying to do too much -- gilding the lily as it were through the use of such a 'bold' look, but ironically only mananging to highlight even further the essential blandness of the terrain.
Or to put it more simply: me no like this.
Peter

[David Davis]

Every time I played both Garden City and National the guys I played with referred to the features as inverted bunkers fwiw.

My host also referred to them as inverted bunkers!

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bill Coore did some amazing ones at Rockport 30 years ago. We called them convex bunkers. Here's a link to the thread that discussed Rockport, Quogue and NGLA, with a few crappy pics of some of the Rockport ones:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31477.msg615336.html#msg615336

[Peter Pallotta]

30 years ago, you say, eh Mark?

Bill C must've been quite a young man back then.

I assume that he hasn't built one since.

Peter

[Mark Bourgeois]

Well, you know, Peter. Probably just another case of a creative type's first work being his best work. Trying to recall if this Coors guy got any commissions afterwards and drawing a blank. 

[CJames]

Bill Coore built an inverted/convex bunker at Sand Valley. 

[Kyle Harris]

Out of curiosity, are the sandy areas at Garden City and Streamsong pictured here treated as hazards or as waste areas?

Through the green at Streamsong.

There is no definition of "waste area" in the rules of golf. It's either a bunker or through the green.

See:
http://www.usga.org/videos/2016/05/25/160524-uswafb_rules-bunkers-mp4-4911537928001.html

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bill Coore built an inverted/convex bunker at Sand Valley.

Clearly a designer with an eye for the ironic.