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Mike_Sweeney

Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2003, 08:55:04 AM »
I don't think there is another Ben Crenshaw in the near future for a bunch of reasons. Let's look at why C&C are successful. Their first 18 hole course (Plantation 1991) did not open until 5 years after they formed their partnership. Now that they are successful, they have the restaint to only take on 2 projects a year, a huge asset. Thus, they get to focus on good projects with good developers and land. Ben Crenshaw was also smart eough to pick Bill Coore as a partner, his greatest asset.

I believe that the higher end market that we focus on here, has and will continue to change. Today, the younger architects are learing how to market and Brand themselves. Tom Doak is moaning about his airplane miles on another thread, but the reality is that is exactly how he has positioned himself, an expert on international and links style courses. (Tom, once you talked Cornell into your Junior year abroad, your fate was sealed with American Airlines ;)) He is going to get those calls at least for the near future. Are Tom Doak, Kyle Phillips, Steve Smyers and David Kidd looking for Pro playing partners ?

The exception could be a Faxon - Booth type of partnership, but even there they will need to establish a firm reputation in the local New England market with their existing projects before moving onto a National or International stage. Faxon may not have the Majors of Crenshaw, but he does seem to care.

PS. Just saw Tom's post on DLIII, the only problem with the younger (Love, Tiger and Mickelson) guys versus Crenshaw is that they have so many more opportunities thrown at them, I personally would find it difficult to focus.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2003, 10:10:46 AM »
I think it will be Sidd Finch.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2003, 10:21:04 AM »
Garcia and Nicklaus were signed to do one course each in the south part of D/FW not far from Brauer's Tangle Ridge GC.  Reportedly, Sergio is being assisted by the Nicklaus team.  This resort project on the banks of Joe Pool Lake has been off and on for some time, and I hear that the developer is having trouble making administrative payroll (I don't think that ground has been broken).  I think I've heard that Garcia has other projects in various stages of consideration.

jg7236

Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2003, 12:24:14 PM »
Lou,

Nicklaus is indeed working with Sergio in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.  Basically Nicklaus's company is doing all the grunt work and design while Sergio learns all about the golf course design business.  Once he learns the ins and outs of the design business he is going to try to go out on his own if he is able to do so.  Hopefully he doesn't take as long on his future designs as he does to hit the damn golf ball, just kidding.

Nicklaus is also helping start out Ernie Els.  Ernie Els has one guy working for him and the rest of the work is done through Nicklaus because he has the overhead to do so.

TEPaul

Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2003, 12:50:30 PM »
TomD:

The thing that impressed me most about Love and Faldo in an architectural sense or as some kind of consultant to an architect is how acutely aware they appear to be regarding all the golfers who don't and can't hit the ball like they do. Most of that has to do with distance in an architectural context and the reality of it.

That to me is really ironic and valuable too because I see some very good architects get too formulaic about distance and the reality of it (or lack thereof) and consequently tend to create things (options, whatever) that aren't very reasonable--yardage formulaics, you might call it).  That's what impressed me most about Faldo and Love too a long time ago.

Some otherwise excellent architects sometimes tend to create things (options) which are not bound to be used for obvious reasons of lack of reality and that kind of thing can end up being a form of course weakness or flaw. (An option that looks great on paper that is very rarely used is a poor option and poor design, in my opinion).

Ben Crenshaw overcomes that problem, in my opinion, simply because he has ten thousand great shots that he can probably feel in his bones and understands the limits of reasonableness. Faldo is so much that way I couldn't believe it and all probably because he happens to be so observant of all other golfers around him and their weaknesses.

As for Love, he actually appeared to be very shy about his awesome length and very realistic too about what others could reasonably do. There was a guy named Parker who actually did better than Love in the college ranks one year that was playing in the Sunnehanna with him. I asked him what he thought about Parker and he said he's a good player here but when we go on tour he'll never do well because he just can't hit the ball far enough despite what a good course manager and ball striker he is. Love was right--Parker never made it in the pro ranks.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2003, 02:27:56 PM »
Tom:  I agree that understanding how a variety of golfers will play a hole is a major key to design, and I think the guys we're discussing understand better than most pros.

In fact, Ben Crenshaw probably explained that better to me than anyone else has, some twenty years ago.  He said he thought that if you designed a hole or a shot so that he could play it in a 40-mph wind, that was probably enough leeway to get most of the people around most of the time.  By imagining enough wind, he could take himself down to the level of you and me.

I'm not sure those other guys think that clearly.

TEPaul

Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2003, 02:43:24 PM »
TomD:

That's interesting because the only time I met Ben Crenshaw the discussion of the concept of a hole at Friar's started boiling down to that very idea--reasonableness in real wind.

Obviously with a guy like Crenshaw who's such an accomplished player and growing up in the strong and flat wind of Texas reasonableness of distance is a thing he can feel in his bones far better than most.

Actually there is a test example on display at the USGA test center in Far Hills about the true effects of various windspeeds on the distance performance of a golf ball at various trajectories. It's very surprising and isn't even close to what most amateurs--and possibly an architect or two I know might think!

J_McKenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2003, 02:51:53 PM »
Since I work for Davis, it's probably better not to respond directly to this question. Instead, I would just like to let everyone know that Davis' design work can be seen in two weeks during the television coverage of the Chrysler Classic of Greensboro.  Love Golf Design has just completed the redesign of Forest Oaks Country Club, a course originally designed by Ellis Maples by in 1964.  A course preview can be found at:
 
http://www.news-record.com/sports/golf/course29.htm

I hope this doesn't come across as a shameless plug, but since part of my job is marketing- well, so be it. :)

Gary_Smith

Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2003, 03:24:19 PM »
Garcia and Nicklaus were signed to do one course each in the south part of D/FW not far from Brauer's Tangle Ridge GC.  Reportedly, Sergio is being assisted by the Nicklaus team.  This resort project on the banks of Joe Pool Lake has been off and on for some time, and I hear that the developer is having trouble making administrative payroll (I don't think that ground has been broken).  I think I've heard that Garcia has other projects in various stages of consideration.

Well, maybe Shivas is right that Garcia would make a wonderful architect.

I'm pretty surprised that Garcia is already getting into the design business. He is so young and I thought he wanted to be the greatest player in the world. Seems to me that he would devote himself to being the best golfer he can be at this point in his career.




Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2003, 08:59:32 PM »
I still say Sidd Finch.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

TEPaul

Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2003, 09:29:43 PM »
Forrest:

If Sidd Finch isn't an IRA terrorist his name sure sounds like one! I'd say give him a rocky site and he'd probably do wonders with dynamite or nitro-gel on it!

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2003, 10:44:12 PM »
Someone please explain to me why you think a particular pro will make a good architect or player designer. Doesn't the architect possess the artist ability and vision? Was Bill Coore a good architect before Crenshaw? Or did Crenshaw bring out the best of Coore's artistic ability and fetch the best sites.

But don't the best sites really bring out the best in architects.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2003, 10:45:42 PM »
Wasn't Sid Finch the baseball player in the famous Sports Illustrated article who threw a baseball 168 mph?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2003, 12:20:59 AM »
quasssi,

You win seven tickets to see Fazio on Ice. Congratulations.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

moth

Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2003, 12:35:06 AM »
How many "names" are the nicklaus organisation designing for?? I know this is part of their business now.

Let me see - Nicklaus's (senior, junior plus a couple of other nicklauses), Els, Garcia, Player (overseas) + ??

Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2003, 10:45:20 PM »
Of the player-cum-designers in the business, it strikes me that Michael Clayton has an opportunity to be the Next Gentle Ben. In his mid-forties, Clayton is unlikely to pound balls on the range to get his game back in tip-top tournament shape, although obligations will make it necessary to "keep up appearances" selectively. And thus, the time element required by anyone to reach Ben's lofty standard is available to Clayts. Clayton has always looked happiest when solving a dogleg dilemma, rather than "stiffing" a four-iron. To date, an impressive portfolio has been amassed, including renovations/restorations at places like Portsea, Rosanna, Cranbourne, Victoria, to name a few, and the all-world job at Peninsula North. Clayton's solo design at Ranfurlie is well worth a game. Via the agency of a Doak-Clayton partnership Down Under, Clayton's firm has been involved with St. Andrews Beach and Barnbougle Dunes. Another reason (always understated) to factor in, is the back up support. Clayton's team - Bruce Grant, John Sloan and Michael Cocking are real craftsmen. One sense that Clayton's opportunities overseas will increase, and it will be absorbing to see how he intergrates lessons learned from 30 years on the Melbourne Sandbelt to his O/S designs. In one critical area Clayton is ahead: some preach adherance to the notion that short interesting par-fours are the way to go, and then don't build them. Clayton actually incorporates them.

Mickelson, Garcia and Co are kidding themselves and hoodwinking the public if they think they can pull off a similar stunt at such tender ages. Kiss majors goodbye: perhaps they already have? Once golf architecture gets in your blood, I fail to see how a regular and hard practicing tour player can switch from "Game Face On" to the discipline required to look beyond the next birdie and eagle. Perhaps Davis Love 111 has some special talent in this regard?

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2003, 09:28:05 AM »
Forrest are you a fan of George Plimpton. The great author just passed away and you talk about Sid Finch. That was a classic story. The last paragraph, I believe, if you took the first letter from each word spelled April Fools. Anyway...

No one has mentioned Hal Sutton - I don't even know if he designs - but I bet he would certainly look for a "traditional, classic style" in the design of a golf course.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2003, 10:27:19 AM »
Sidd was a terrific pitcher. And we shall all miss George.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2003, 10:46:22 AM »
Leave it to a Daley to bring out some grist for this mill to grind. ;) ;D

Michael Clayton has come on this site to give us his comments on various matters a number of times.  He also lends commentary as a guest of the show when the Australian tour is broadcast here on the Golf Channel in winter season.  He certainly seems to have the personal interest and commitment to take his involvement in GCA further and makes the effort to discuss design ideas with folks like us.

I don't know that there will be a next Ben Crenshaw.  I look forward to some of these more serious PDs being their ownselves...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2003, 11:19:46 AM »
Depending on what you're looking for, David Duval could either be the second coming or apocalypse.

If you're looking for somebody who will embrace classical design ideals, I'd say that David Duval is the last pro golfer you would want. He's on record as saying the person (real or imagined) he most closely resembles (again, real or imagined) is Howard Roark, Ayn Rand's famous Fountainhead character.

As many know, Roark was expelled from architecture school for refusing to adhere to classical styles.

Sean, you won't be surprised to see me respond to this, but you seem to have missed the whole point of the book and certainly missed out on why Roark was expelled. The school was not teaching classical principles of architecture, but rather how to mimic & mishmash styles in a form over substance manner. Howard was interesting in building the best buildings, period. In reading some of the old works of the masters, you'll see that many of them expected golf course design to evolve and advance & wouldn't be afraid of a Roark like figure. Too bad it took a long time before we started seeing some Roarks on the modern golf design scene.

Howard would've made a helluva golf course architect, though he probably wouldn't have been accepted into the ASGCA. :)

-----
Anyone know how or what Charlie Rymer is doing with Mike Young? Didn't I read on here that they're partnering up in some way?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2003, 11:20:30 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2003, 12:23:18 PM »
GeorgeP & SPDB:

I love to see these references to other areas of architecture--even Howard Roark. Tom MacWood should certainly weigh in here on his thoughts as his five part essay on the "Arts and Crafts Movement" in the "In My Opinion" section of this website is unquestionably one of the most fascinating and valuable contributions ever made here.

I went out to Chicago a couple weeks ago to see a Flynn course, Glen View, and play in the inaugural Flynn Cup. We had not been on the property an hour when we were told a busload with O.C. Simon (well known 19th and 20th century landscape architect) afficionados were about to arrive.

I thought I had to get on that tour of the course to see what they were up to and wanting to observe and say. The director talked about the natural and random landscape design (trees) around the course etc. And for some reason the director asked me if I had anything to say!

Me being me I launched into an entire description of golf architecture, it's design principles, the "lines" of it and how that could meld into the landscape or something designed by an O.C. Simon. I even launched into the "arts and crafts movement" and how that had been a break-away and a reaction to the super balanced "lines" of classical architecture--and that wasn't it interesting all these cross-currents of ideas and movements one upon another including the influences on golf architecture and even the design of the clubhouse.

Well, by this time many of the O.C. Simon afficionados were pretty revved up and before getting on the bus one of them breathlessly told me I just HAD to learn everything there was to know about the "Rural Cemetery Movement" and its influences!!

Can you believe it? The "RURAL CEMETERY MOVEMENT"!!

We have the "arts and crafts" influence, the "camouflage" influence from MacK's Boer War obsevations, the "geometric" influence, the Muirhead "Nhu, Nhu Nhu" influence, and now somewhere deep within golf architecture we may be about to discover the extreme importance of the influence on golf architecture of the "RURAL CEMETERY MOVEMENT"!

Apparently all the Max Behr essays have not been unearthed but when they are I have a hunch that we will find the last word on the "Rural Cemetery Movement's" influence on golf architecture for better or worse!   ;)

ForkaB

Re:Who is the next Ben Crenshaw?
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2003, 06:55:43 AM »
Based on his recent posts on some other threads, I'd have to second Paul Daley's nomination of Mike Clayton.  He "gets it", he's dedicated and he's aligning himself with the right people.

Good luck, Mike!