[Niall C]

Apologies for the half finished sentence for a topic heading but no quick way to summarise what I want to say and ask.


I had the pleasure of playing North Berwick again yesterday and as always thoroughly enjoyed it. I say as always, although in truth the course has grown on me over the years, not that I ever thought it a bad course. What struck me yesterday was a comment from my playing partner (a very well known golf course connoisseur from the former colonies) when playing the Pit hole, that this was why US golfers want to play NB ie. see something they don't get in the States.


That got me thinking, what would visiting golfers think of NB without the famous wall at the Pit hole or the double plateau green at the Gate hole ? Imagine if instead of the wall there was a burn running along the line of the wall. Wouldn't that be a very fine hole ? Maybe even better than what's there now ?


And what if the gate green was levelled and redesigned with a green at grade level, similar to some of the other holes like the 3rd which to my mind has one of the best greens on the course.


Would NB lose all of its appeal completely or would the rest of the course begin to shine in the absence of some of the quirk ?


Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall


The bulk of NB's rep (good and bad) is due to quirk...holes like 1, 13, 14 & 16...and pure quality...holes like 2, 10, 11, 15 and 17.  I think there is a good supporting cast of holes...4, 7 and 18.  Yes, there are some weak links, but no real duds.  If you took the quirk away NB suffers greatly...which helps explain why there are such varying opinions as to the quality of the course. 


I think the 13th would be a good hole with a stream rather than a wall, but a wall makes the hole unique and that is worth far more than any stream could possibly provide.  Get rid of the 16th green and what is left? Not much, but we could say this about many a great hole...so I don't understand this point.


Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean


My point about the 16th was similar to what I was saying about the 13th in that you could replace one feature for another (stream instead of wall in the case of the 13th) and still make it a very good hole but without the quirk which is what you picked up on. My point was not really to suggest that be done but instead ask if it were how would peoples perception of the course change (as it inevitably would) and would the rest of the course be appreciated more ?


Niall

[Alex Miller]

I don't think the changes you suggest could be given weighed on without knowing how well changing these features was executed.




Sure you could replace the wall with a stream/burn, but to make it look natural and play strategically is what it's really about. Tying it into the land that's there may change some other features of the hole - you may realize that to make it work fully you'd like to alter some green contours so the green is not pitched away from the burn, as that would seem pretty odd.


As for the 16th... okay we've flattened it, now what do we put there? The 16th definitely works in its current state as it's in the midst of one of the quirkier stretches of holes in all of golf (13-18). You could put in an all-world green complex there but it still would only work if it fit with the rest of the course.




Agree with Sean overall - these changes change features with are core to NBW's identity and charm. There are hundreds of things I'd look at before these if forced to change something about NBW.

[Ulrich Mayring]

You can't replace the wall or the gully green on equal terms. Part of the challenge is how these unusual features get in your mind and make you think. Everyone knows how to deal with a burn, but a wall? Can't get too close to it!

If you change these features you change how the hole is played. Quirk is always an integral part of the design, because by definition it catches you off guard. You don't expect what's coming. And you react to that.

Ulrich

[David Lott]

I shot the lowest score of my life at North Berwick so I have a great affection for it.


Had a outstanding (and very young) caddy in that round. This was almost 20 years ago but I remember the quirky holes the best. Why would you change it now, after all these years? It's really a wonderful place as it is.

[Niall C]

OK folks, I'll try better to explain. I'm not suggesting you do anything to the course. Nothing at all.


All I'm asking is imagine that the wall at 13 didn't exist and the green at 16 was at grade level (but with contour and some good strategy), if that were the case would the case overall be better received ? Rather than a couple of quirky holes with 16 others attached, would it become a much better course in the eyes of the one hit wonders who might stop to appreciate the 3rd more (easily the best green on the course) ?


Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

would it become a much better course in the eyes of the one hit wonders who might stop to appreciate the 3rd more (easily the best green on the course) ?


Niall

Now you are just being provocative... what about 7 or 12?




Analogies for you .


Isn't this like saying
Ben Hur would still be great without the Chariot Race.
The genius of Haussmann's architecture in Paris would be better appreciated if not for the Eiffel Tower.




Those features are part an parcel of the place. It makes little sense to play the what if in this case...

[Philip Spogard]

If you took the Road Hole out of the Old Course, or removed the shed, hotel and road, golfers/media/reviewers would (naturally) put more emphasis on other aspects, which are now receiving less 'focus'. They would become the more defining experiences found on the course.


But isn't the unique nature the exact beauty of courses such as North Berwick and TOC as they offer quirk in abundance? Unique experiences and features, on almost every hole, which are not (and perhaps can not) be replicated elsewhere. Even though many Redans have since been built around the World.


Suggesting to take these out - to create a more 'standardised' design - to allow less memorable experiences and features to stand out and be noticed, is a strange argument. Lets instead continue to celebrate and discuss the uniqueness of holes and features such as these.

[Niall C]

Suggesting to take these out - to create a more 'standardised' design - to allow less memorable experiences and features to stand out and be noticed, is a strange argument.

Philip


Let me refer you to my previous post. I'm not suggesting they be taken out, I'm just asking what if there wasn't a frigging wall there in the first place..now to you get what I'm saying ? What would you think of the course then ?


Niall

[Niall C]

Tony


The 7th is a terrific green while the 12th is a terrific green complex in relation to the rest of the hole. Neither as good as the 3rd IMO, but agree I might have overstated it by saying it's easily the best.


Point is though, who talks about the 3rd, or the 7th ?


Niall

[Philip Spogard]

Suggesting to take these out - to create a more 'standardised' design - to allow less memorable experiences and features to stand out and be noticed, is a strange argument.

Philip


Let me refer you to my previous post. I'm not suggesting they be taken out, I'm just asking what if there wasn't a frigging wall there in the first place..now to you get what I'm saying ? What would you think of the course then ?


Niall

Niall,


I get what you are saying. If I can refer you to the point I was making, if it is not perfectly clear, I would think the golfing experience was more 'standardised', less memorable and less exciting as a direct result of losing 2 such distinct, unique and memorable design features. Still a great course though.




Philip

[Tom_Doak]

Niall:


I don't think North Berwick would be nearly as beloved without the Pit and the Gate, nor perceived as a great course as some do now.  Yes, there are other fine holes, but without the quirky talking points they would not be enough, and the course's other weaknesses [it does have some] would be counted up against it.  But you don't count up the weaknesses of someone or something you love.


This week I have played St. Enodoc, Westward Ho!, Saunton, and Burnham with a small traveling party, and Minchinhampton Old afterward.  They are all so different that everyone in the group [well traveled men, women, and caddies from Sunningdale and from the Euro Tour] had a different favorite, and you could see why each favored a different course:  it all came down to whether one liked quirk and unique holes, atmosphere, fairness, or challenge [in roughly that order].  I wish I had convinced them to stay and do Minch Old, but they were off to Sunningdale and it wasn't a great day for it, anyway.

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