Strictly 2-Ball Clubs

[Mark Chaplin]

Less clubs are failing in the 1% of two ball clubs than the 99% of however you want to play it clubs. I don't know a predominantly two ball club that isn't a) a classic design and b) aspirational to join.

Adam I assume you'd welcome 20 people taking 10 tee times and playing two ball or would you want to charge them based on 4 per tee time?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Less clubs are failing in the 1% of two ball clubs than the 99% of however you want to play it clubs. I don't know a predominantly two ball club that isn't a) a classic design and b) aspirational to join.

Adam I assume you'd welcome 20 people taking 10 tee times and playing two ball or would you want to charge them based on 4 per tee time?

Mark, your distorting the picture in that, the 2 ball clubs can do what they want because they are already among the most desired clubs. They are classic, aspirational primarily because they are great courses not really because of the 2 ball play.


Can I ask you what happens at Deal if a 4 ball turns up to play and it is a 2 ball day/time and no one else is out on the course/booked in. What does the pro shop do? Would you leave RCP if they became a predominant 4 ball course.


Your question to me I will answer in 2 ways. Yes I would take 2 ball play if it was a quiet day in the week. No at weekends I can get £208 per 8 minutes, so would pass on £104.


Overall though it seems there are not really many (if any) strict 2 ball clubs most have applied and integrated to 4 ball play to appease as many as possible. I can also understand that if a club has just one start like many clubs it does make sense to have 2 ball play early in the day.


Here is another curve ball question to everyone. Is it good golf course design to have multiple starting points? The reason I say this is many on here just see the strategic aspect and the green design without looking at many of the things that 'the more middle of the road' golf course architects factor into the masterplan, certainly from my point of view when I am designing a new course I am thinking always about the £/$ relationship of my spend plus the £/$ relationship of his maintenance budget and the projected income of the golf course/club.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

It is interesting that you aren't welcoming to 2ball play during busy times  Bottom line, its not about how friendly a club is, its money you are really talking about.

I don't know about others, but all things being equal, I would join the club with multiple starting points and shorter (boozers loops) routes available.  I am always impressed by courses which offer a lot of choices.  I was just pondering Prestwick's routing the other day...an incredible amount of options which doesn't require hardly any extra walking...of course...I always believed that the best split back to the house is not 9-9, but 4 or 5 and 13 or 14....and Prestwick nails it!

4 holes: 15-18 and 15, 16, 13-14

5 holes: 1-3, 13-14

7 holes: 15-17, 2, 3, 13-14

9 holes: 1-3, 13-18

10 holes: 1-5, 10-14

11 holes: 15-17, 2-4, 10-14

14 holes: 1-5, 10-14, 15-18

18

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian

It is interesting that you aren't welcoming to 2ball play during busy times  Bottom line, its not about how friendly a club is, its money you are really talking about.

I don't know about others, but all things being equal, I would join the club with multiple starting points and shorter (boozers loops) routes available.  I am always impressed by courses which offer a lot of choices.  I was just pondering Prestwick's routing the other day...an incredible amount of options which doesn't require hardly any extra walking...of course...I always believed that the best split back to the house is not 9-9, but 4 or 5 and 13 or 14....and Prestwick nails it!

4 holes: 15-18 and 15, 16, 13-14

5 holes: 1-3, 13-14

7 holes: 15-17, 2, 3, 13-14

9 holes: 1-3, 13-18

10 holes: 1-5, 10-14

11 holes: 15-17, 2-4, 10-14

14 holes: 1-5, 10-14, 15-18

18

Ciao

NO Sean that's not it at all. Firstly, I have never had anyone want to play society golf as 2 balls. The problem with 2 ball play at busy times is that it is very slow behind 4 balls. 2 ball play must be out early ahead full stop. Mark asked would I turn the business down of 2 balls taking 10 times at busy times. Yes was my answer as on financial grounds I am only getting half money, but 2s behind 4s is not fun and that is important too.

Prestwick and any other course works for boozer looping only if the course is not busy, you can cite almost any course that a less than 18 config can work by cutting in. My question was not related to that.

The majority see 4 ball golf as more friendly than 2 ball, perhaps because they can engage two versus two match play which is probably the dominant GB game for non competition golf.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

It is interesting that you aren't welcoming to 2ball play during busy times  Bottom line, its not about how friendly a club is, its money you are really talking about.

I don't know about others, but all things being equal, I would join the club with multiple starting points and shorter (boozers loops) routes available.  I am always impressed by courses which offer a lot of choices.  I was just pondering Prestwick's routing the other day...an incredible amount of options which doesn't require hardly any extra walking...of course...I always believed that the best split back to the house is not 9-9, but 4 or 5 and 13 or 14....and Prestwick nails it!

4 holes: 15-18 and 15, 16, 13-14

5 holes: 1-3, 13-14

7 holes: 15-17, 2, 3, 13-14

9 holes: 1-3, 13-18

10 holes: 1-5, 10-14

11 holes: 15-17, 2-4, 10-14

14 holes: 1-5, 10-14, 15-18

18

Ciao

NO Sean that's not it at all. Firstly, I have never had anyone want to play society golf as 2 balls. The problem with 2 ball play at busy times is that it is very slow behind 4 balls. 2 ball play must be out early ahead full stop. Mark asked would I turn the business down of 2 balls taking 10 times at busy times. Yes was my answer as on financial grounds I am only getting half money, but 2s behind 4s is not fun and that is important too.

Prestwick and any other course works for boozer looping only if the course is not busy, you can cite almost any course that a less than 18 config can work by cutting in. My question was not related to that.

The majority see 4 ball golf as more friendly than 2 ball, perhaps because they can engage two versus two match play which is probably the dominant GB game for non competition golf.

Adrian


Prestwick does have two starting points.  I was only pointing out how the routing makes it very convenient for members to use the course how they wish...very few courses even come close to the many easy configurations Prestwick has.  If I didn't know any better I would say the odd configurations were purposely designed because the flow for walking is incredibly good...better than most modern courses just playing 18!


I am not talking about society golf...just golf.  Most courses on most days are not full with societies so it is VERY common on most courses on most days to allow 2ball play (I do it nearly every course I visit)...so I am not quite sure what you are on about.  It seems like you are hell bent on being harsh to 2ball clubs because they don't follow your model...which is about making money because its a business...so of course 4ball is better than 2ball. However, a great many clubs do not have profit as the underlying motive for their existence. Its a great big world Adrian, plenty of room for all models. 


Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

No Sean. I am not anti 2 ball at all. We accept 2 ball golf. At the weekends though it is no fun being behind 4 balls, if people book as a two ball that is what they play as. Mark asked a different question about would I accept a group of 20 playing as 2s, I had two answers that were dependent on times.

All golf clubs have to operate in a business like manner even if to balance the books, anything else is foolish.

You don't seem to have understood my posts at all.

[Mark Chaplin]

Adrian if 4 turn up on a 2 ball day they play 2 ball.

If Deal became a four ball club I'd be buggered as I wouldn't get into RSG and Rye is too far away. I prefer playing foursomes so unless there were significant two ball times I'd have a serious issue. Fortunately only the seniors section are pushing for fourball.

[Michael Whitaker]

Mark - so, you would get into Rye? 

What is the preferred teetime split with 2-ball games?  7 minutes?

Adrian mentions 8 minute splits for 4 ball games. That is a receipt for very slow play.  Four ball splits should be 9 or 10 minutes.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark - so, you would get into Rye? 

What is the preferred teetime split with 2-ball games?  7 minutes?

Adrian mentions 8 minute splits for 4 ball games. That is a receipt for very slow play.  Four ball splits should be 9 or 10 minutes.

Standard intervals are 6 minutes for 2 ball 7 minutes for 3 ball and 8 minutes for 4 ball. Anything extra is luxury. Open Championship is 11 minutes and it is still slow. Slow golf is about slow players not a tee time interval the bigger gap merely gives a buffer. It is a bit like the principle that if everyone drove faster there would be less cars on the road.

[Mark Chaplin]

Michael I'll obviously have to ask Craig nicely!

Deal is 7 minutes for 2 balls and 10 minutes on Monday and Thursday. Ireland last week was 10 minutes at all of the clubs. We still ended up with big queues on the 15th at Ballybunnion. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I think all things considered there is probably NO strictly 2 ball clubs in GB anymore. In fairness most/all have moved over to be more welcoming and allow the way modern golfers tend to want to play which is 3 and 4 ball play at certain times or days which is often the only way it can be done if a golf club only has a single start point.

Working and Royal West Norfolk are VERY serious about two balls only.
Prior permission is required and rarely granted at either.
I was at both last week and saw ONLY two balls at both courses both fairly busy