[PCCraig]

I was in the Orlando area this week for a quick work trip and managed to swing by the newly renovated Winter Park Country Club. Winter Park is a 9-hole golf course that is set right in the middle of the neighborhood. Keith Rhebb and Riley Johns, both with past experience working with Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw, are credited with the renovation.

The course isn’t open yet…I believe the Grand Opening is Saturday the 1st…and scorecards were not even printed yet. So frankly I don’t know the hole pars or the yardages. The Pro Shop staff was kind enough to let me walk around and check the course out.
 
What I saw this week is something very special. There is a lot to love about the set up of the course. The clubhouse and pro shop building is modest and charming, setting the stage for the golf. The new golf course is set up with just two mowing heights…one for the tees/fairway and the putting surfaces. There is no rough to be found anywhere. Holes cross neighborhood roads, there is an active train line that runs through the course, and there is even a cemetery. The course is certainly very minimalistic with teeing areas barely defined and minimal fairway bunkering. However the greens are all very interesting with a significant amount of slope.
 
Here is the “Master Plan” for the golf course that I found online:
 

 
Hole 1
 
The course starts off with a short two shot hole where the green backs up to an intersection:
 

 
The tee shot is fairly straightforward, but the green features quite a bit of slope and is built up by about 3 or 4 feet and is surrounded with shortgrass:
 

 
Hole 2
 
After crossing a road, you find the second hole which is a one shot hole of about ~160 yards. Note all of the short grass to the left and around the green.
 

 
Here is a closer shot of the built up green.
 

 
Hole 3
 
After crossing a fairly major road, you come to the third tee, which as far as I can tell is either a long two shot hole for better players or a short three shot hole for higher handicappers. The tee shot is pretty straightforward, with a public road on the right side and a fairway bunker on the left side.
 

 
Walking the golf course is a pleasant experience with the course surrounded by some very nice homes to your right:


 
But if you look to your left, you see that you are playing alongside a cemetery!:


 
Here is a look at the fairway bunker at the slight dogleg:


 
A look at the very neat green complex. The bunker on the right is very cool and is reminisant of something you would see at Pinehurst #2:


 
 
Hole 4
 
After walking backwards a bit from the 3^rd green, you come to the 4^th tee, which is a three shot dogleg left hole that doglegs hard around the cemetery. Here is the wide tee shot:
 

 
Longer hitters looking to reach the green in two have to test the fairway bunker on the inside of the dogleg:
 

 
For those laying up, there are a few interesting fairway bunkers about 50-75 yards short of the green to make the player think about placement:
 

 
I love the greenside bunkering here and the contrast of the larger one on the left with the small bunker on the right:
 

 
Looking back from the green, you see how close and in play the cemetery is!:
 

 

Hole 5:
 
After crossing a major road you find yourself looking at the very charming two-shot 5^th:
 

 
How neat is the Principal’s Nose esque fairway bunker???:
 

 
For those carrying the fairway bunker, they are left with this approach. A lovely oak tree stands guard on the right side of the green:
 

 
A close view of the undulating 5^th green:
 

 
Hole 6
 
The 6th is a very short two shot hole that would be easily drivable for longer hitters:
 

 
However, the awesome lions mouth green is one that would really dictate placement off of the tee depending on pin position! Note the train tracks running just long and left of the putting surface:
 
 
 
Looking back from the 6^th green, you can appreciate the playing grounds and all of the short grass:
 

 
Hole 7
 
The 7th is a mid-range one shot hole:
 

 
A view of a commuter train speeding by behind the 7^th tee and 6^th green:
 

 
Here is a closer view of the small green at the 7^th:


 
Hole 8
 
The 8th is another one shot hole, this one being clearly modeled after a redan. There is a road and out of bounds just ~15 paces long of this green:
 

 
Putting Course
Before reaching the 9^th tee, you notice this community putting course. Complete with benches and water fountains. Very neat:
 

 
Hole 9:
 
The 9th hole is a two shot hole that runs in the opposite direction as the first hole:
 

 
The approach to the ninth, with the very pleasant pro shop building and patio in the background:
 

 
I was really surprised by how neat so many of the features were at Winter Park. I do not know the overall par or yardage but I don’t think that matters at all. Each one of the holes are interesting and stand on their own merit. I would highly recommend to anyone traveling through Orlando to stop by and see Winter Park first hand. It’s a fantastically cool golf course!

[Rees Milikin]

Thanks for posting these Pat.

Keith, Riley, Blake, Ryan, and Don did an excellent job with this renovation.  Ed Batcheller the Superintendent worked hand in hand with the design crew during the whole process and has been working non stop to make this course shine.

The Winter Park community is truly lucky to have course to call their own and people are really excited about the course re-opening Saturday.  I will give an update on how the course plays. 

[Sean_A]

Pat


Thanks for the tour!  The course looks just the ticket to me....though perhaps a bit tight to roads etc.  I really like:


1. the separated left bunker on the 1st...is slope enough for balls to roll all the way to the bunker?


2. the routing, while quite forced, is very cool...only one awkward walk....how does the golfer get to the 4th tee without walking down the fairway or road?


3. I really like the two cuts of grass, especially thru the trees


4. I like the oddly placed and un-size matched bunkers for the greens


5. does the 3rd green swing to the right around the front right bunker?  I notice the what is actually in the ground doesn't match the map


Ciao

[Rees Milikin]

Pat


Thanks for the tour!  The course looks just the ticket to me....though perhaps a bit tight to roads etc.  I really like:


1. the separated left bunker on the 1st...is slope enough for balls to roll all the way to the bunker?


2. the routing, while quite forced, is very cool...only one awkward walk....how does the golfer get to the 4th tee without walking down the fairway or road?


3. I really like the two cuts of grass, especially thru the trees


4. I like the oddly placed and un-size matched bunkers for the greens


5. does the 3rd green swing to the right around the front right bunker?  I notice the what is actually in the ground doesn't match the map


Ciao

Sean,



1. I will find out this Saturday once it opens for play and see how balls feed towards that green


2. It was routed in 1914, so not much to work with, especially with the priciest central FL real estate surrounding the course.  Leave your bag near the #4 tee and walk to the #3 green, then walk back.  Not ideal, but absolutely nothing they could do about it.


3. Very good change and hope it stays this way, but mowing time aka $$$ will dictate this.


4. Where are there oddly placed bunkers?  Each of them have a pretty strategic placement.  Curious which ones you think are un sized for the greens?


5. Yes, it sweeps around the front bunker and will feed to the back pin placement.


If you or anyone are ever in the area, hit me up, would love to play my home course with any of GCA'ers...then go have some drinks on Park Ave.

[Sean_A]

Rees


Thanks.


Re the bunkers...which I like because there are some oddities


1. The left bunker looks well stranded from the green...somewhat oddly placed.


2. Mismatched size bunkers.


4. Mismatched size bunkers.


7. Bunker seems massive compared to the green.


In general, a very cool bunker scheme in pix anyway. 


Ciao

[Carl Nichols]

Rees-
Where does the course get its water? I don't think I saw a pond or any other water on the course.

[Rees Milikin]

Rees-
Where does the course get its water? I don't think I saw a pond or any other water on the course.

From the city or one of the hundreds of lakes in the area.  To be honest, I have no clue, but Central Florida doesn't have a lack of water.

[Rees Milikin]

Rees


Thanks.


Re the bunkers...which I like because there are some oddities


1. The left bunker looks well stranded from the green...somewhat oddly placed.


2. Mismatched size bunkers.


4. Mismatched size bunkers.


7. Bunker seems massive compared to the green.


In general, a very cool bunker scheme in pix anyway. 


Ciao

In regards to the bunker on the first, I was told it was placed there to catch somewhat errant shots that might be hit by a driver.  The road is right behind it, so it is more of a safety precaution. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Centerline fairway bunkers? Some of those early fairways (holes 1-5) seem massive in width, and I insist that some noise in the middle of them would force golfers to wake up and strategize, rather than bang away.

[Kyle Harris]

Centerline fairway bunkers? Some of those early fairways (holes 1-5) seem massive in width, and I insist that some noise in the middle of them would force golfers to wake up and strategize, rather than bang away.

Because the key to a good community-driven golf course is to get golfers aiming toward the edges of the fairways and housing.

[Rees Milikin]

Centerline fairway bunkers? Some of those early fairways (holes 1-5) seem massive in width, and I insist that some noise in the middle of them would force golfers to wake up and strategize, rather than bang away.

Hole #1 is 246 yards and is drivable.  Not sure what a centerline bunker would do anything but punish the high handicapper. 

Hole #2 is a par 3, no centerline bunker needed

Hole #3 has a bunker on the left side of the fairway which is the line to attack the green.  Would a centerline bunker make the hole more strategic or penal for the high handicapper? If there was a centerline bunker, the only advantage to attacking the bunker would be to play up the left side.  If you went to the right of a centerline bunker, you would be blocked out due to the pine trees.  The hole offers more subtle strategy than the pictures show.

Hole #4 - I wouldn't be opposed to one here.  However, taking on the far left bunker gives you a big advantage on your second shot. 

Hole #5 - Again, I wouldn't be opposed to one here.  It is a drivable hole, but if you hit too far right then you are in the woods. You get penalized for a wayward shot, but you can play a recovery shot from the woods to a bunkerless green.  Take on the principals nose bunker/the road to the left and you end up with a perfect angle to the green.  Hit down the center and you have a pretty decent shot into the green.

Hopefully Blake Conant will chime in to give more insight into the bunker placement.

After playing the course twice yesterday, the most apparent thing to me is the amount of pin placements available that can really put a bite into such a short course. 

[Rees Milikin]

Centerline fairway bunkers? Some of those early fairways (holes 1-5) seem massive in width, and I insist that some noise in the middle of them would force golfers to wake up and strategize, rather than bang away.

Because the key to a good community-driven golf course is to get golfers aiming toward the edges of the fairways and housing.

Agreed, it would be excessive and make people quit playing or not bother picking up the game.

Wish you could have made it yesterday, it was really fun and hot.

[Don Mahaffey]

The course is small and I don't believe there are any centerline bunkers.    No room for that.

I think it it very, very good. It is partly a park and mostly a golf course and fits beautifully within the community.     Putting course was full of kids yesterday and while we were on the 9th tee I heard a little girl, guess 9-10 years old, shout from the green to some friends across the street, "come over here and play a putting game"
Who builds a putting course that anyone can play at anytime? A city that wants its citizens to enjoy their golf course for years   And the putting course came to be because we brought the project in under budget and returned the money to the city even though we were contracted for the entire amount.   That's what we told them we would do if they pitched in and helped when we needed it and they did.    This was not your usual public project. 

[Blake Conant]

Ron, the fairways are wide, much wider than they were before.  Keith and Riley achieved that through eliminating the rough cut and removing/limbing up 100+ trees.  However, the streets are still where they've always been.  The corridors themselves don't have much room for error.  Because of that, lots of strategic decisions Keith and Riley made were protecting the street and rewarding the player who played away from the street with a better angle into the green. 


And really, how else can you defend a short course with narrow corridors other than at the green?

On 1, position A is left side of the fairway, 30-50 yards short of the left greenside bunker.  A 3-iron or hybrid for most off the tee.  Riley and Keith thought about punching a bunker into a little knob at the start of a subtle plateau, but ultimately decided against it and just left the knob


On 4, an average drive gets you to the front of the left fairway bunker, and there's a lot of fairway right and beyond the bunker.  An ideal drive hugs the bunker as much as possible, and if you can carry it over the corner of the cemetery, more power to you.  Going long or flaring it right doesn't benefit you at all.  The plan showed a bunker in line with the house on the other side of the fairway, but that sort of screws the guy who's already out of position.  Besides, 3 and 4 are really the only holes where you can let the driver rip, and I think Keith and Riley needed a good reason to take that away from the player.  Ultimately the house bunker was nixed in favor of the left approach bunker, which I think adds more strategy to the hole.

Can't think of any other holes where a center bunker was considered or discussed. 

[Sean_A]

Rees


Thanks.


Re the bunkers...which I like because there are some oddities


1. The left bunker looks well stranded from the green...somewhat oddly placed.


2. Mismatched size bunkers.


4. Mismatched size bunkers.


7. Bunker seems massive compared to the green.


In general, a very cool bunker scheme in pix anyway. 


Ciao

In regards to the bunker on the first, I was told it was placed there to catch somewhat errant shots that might be hit by a driver.  The road is right behind it, so it is more of a safety precaution.

Rees


Thanks.  Its difficult to get an understanding of the left bunker/road relationship because the map doesn't match the photos.  So, does the slope feed shots to the left bunker?


Ciao

[Rees Milikin]

Rees


Thanks.


Re the bunkers...which I like because there are some oddities


1. The left bunker looks well stranded from the green...somewhat oddly placed.


2. Mismatched size bunkers.


4. Mismatched size bunkers.


7. Bunker seems massive compared to the green.


In general, a very cool bunker scheme in pix anyway. 


Ciao

In regards to the bunker on the first, I was told it was placed there to catch somewhat errant shots that might be hit by a driver.  The road is right behind it, so it is more of a safety precaution.

Rees


Thanks.  Its difficult to get an understanding of the left bunker/road relationship because the map doesn't match the photos.  So, does the slope feed shots to the left bunker?


Ciao

It does not really feed into it from the green.  It is meant to catch errant shots heading to the road.  This is due to it being a 246 yard drivable par 4, which is the same distance it has been since at least the 1930's.

[Terry Lavin]

I'll be there in a month for the CCO member guest and will get a Winter Park round in. It seems like nostalgia with modern make up which is just fine by me, since Park Avenue is a martini away.

[Mark McKeever]

Looks awesome.  I will certainly have to add this one to the list during my next trip down South.


MM

[PCCraig]

Rees,


How did the course play last weekend?

[Will Peterson]

I played it yesterday, and was really impressed.  For the most part, it's grown in nicely.  There are a couple of bare spots and the third hole (one of the first sprigged) fairway looks real bad.  The old version of that hole always seemed to have issues as well.


The greens are a lot of fun, and probably 5x bigger than before.  There are good internal contours, and great edges that fall off to chipping areas.  They were so small before that it made short game shots very difficult.  I saw many players go back and forth over greens when chipping.  I like all the short grass, and hopefully it doesn't slowly decrease if budget become an issue.  I really like the slight change in yardage to the par 3s.  Before they were all basically 150 yards, but now they have 145, 160 and 180.  Seven may now be the toughest hole on the course.  I think they did a good job on 1 and 5 directing play away from the road.


The putting course is a nice touch, and looks like a lot of fun.


The one thing that I think they missed was the forward tees.  The course used to have two sets of tees, but now they have three.  I think they could have pushed the forward tees up on many of the holes.  It's a short course, so why make it play long for beginners, seniors and ladies.  None of the par 3s are under 100 yards, and I would imagine the average lady golfer I've seen at the course will need to hit a wood on all of them.  They also could have put the tee on 4 up another 50-75 yards and 30-40 yards on 3. For the average golfer, you will hit a ton of wedges, possibly drive a couple of par 4s and reach a par 5 in two.  They could have easily put the forward tees up 200-400 yards to give them a similar experience.  You can always move back if it's too short.

[Blake Conant]

Will, what's underneath the 3rd hole is a bit of an outlier relative to the rest of the course.  I'm sure you noticed the big grates running down the middle of the fairway and behind the green.  ~15 years ago the city tore up the entire hole and put three, large, cement storm water drain channels 10 feet below the surface.  I think that's the crux of any issues there


What we found once we started digging was an unusually thick organic layer with noticeably more rock.  I know Keith and the maintenance crew had a bitch of a time finishing that fairway.  We did what we could flipping the sand, but I think the profile was too compromised from the drain channel construction to reverse it. 

[Ari Marcus]

I've played Winter Park Golf Course twice already since the re-open, what an improvement! A really fun mix of holes.


The first time I played the course, I hit mostly woods off the tees. I found myself left with a lot of different types of pitches, chips, and challenging long putts.


The second time I played, I took mostly irons, leaving myself with longer yardages into the greens. There were some very good approaches from these distances.


The greens are so much better than before, there is actual definition around the greens and they are now more "green complexes" rather than just "mowed down extensions of the fairway".


Attached is the scorecard

[Mike Sweeney]

Played Winter Park today on the way back from Deltona, which has recovered from previous conditioning issues. Absolutely loved Winter Park. Kids, women, high school players... it is THE right answer for golf. USGA take note....


On the second tee, my partner ask "Are you THE Mike Sweeney from Golf Club Atlas?" Too funny, but that is who the place attracts - Real Golfers.

[Jeff_Brauer]

We put in a proposal for that job, as a sub to a contractor who wanted to work on it, and this is the history of the course I came up with, mostly from Cornish and Whitten, which some might find interesting as background:

 WPCCGC dates to 1900 when its first nine opened.The second nine opened in 1910 and the third in 1914, which is the date you recognize as your founding date.


The course was short lived, as livestock grazed the area during the WWI years.  The course re-opened, only to close again from 1926-1937, when nine holes was known as the “inner nine” were revived for play. The city bought the course in 1950, and may have made minor renovations at the start of ownership.


The original course was designed by John Duncan Dunn, who came to America in 1894.His entire family, including father Tom Dunne, Brother Seymour, uncle and cousins Willie and Young Willie Dunn, were well known of the Scottish immigrant professionals who came to America to design, build, and oversea course construction at various locales.


After stints at sporting goods companies like Slazenger and Bridgestone selling sporting goods, and as golf pro at Ardsley on the Hudson in New York, John Duncan Dunn worked for Florida West Coast Railroad designing and building a half dozen golf courses from 1898-1900.Winter Park was one of the last of those projects.From 1900- until WW1, he also collaborated on other course designs in the north east with Walter Travis, and also designed a few courses in Europe.


After WWI, he moved to California to become pro at Los Angeles Country Club, where he ran golf schools and gave Babe Zaharias golf lessons.
 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thanks Jeff
What was your estimated project cost?
Cheers

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