Question about the state of the greens at Pacific Dunes

[David Davis]

Just returned back to my Mom's place from a few days out at Bandon.


I'm curious if anyone knows what's going on with the greens at Pacific Dunes. I'm sure they know what they are doing but the state of them in comparison to the other courses, mainly Trails and Old Mac is really surprising. I would guess that maybe the poa invasion is so high they are deciding to simply let it take over. It seems there are a few different grass sorts growing in there at the moment which causing extremely bumpy greens. Even so, still my favorite course there by far but I figure some of you know what's happening there.


Thanks

[Bill_McBride]

How were they putting?  Years ago Pebble Beach conceded that they couldn't beat the poa and still have very playable, fast surfaces. Maybe that's what's going on. 

[David Davis]

How were they putting?  Years ago Pebble Beach conceded that they couldn't beat the poa and still have very playable, fast surfaces. Maybe that's what's going on.

Bill, that's what I'm thinking too, I just wanted to find out more from those in the know. Trails and Old Macdonald were in far better shape in terms of how they roll.

[Sven Nilsen]

Trails and Old MacDonald are much newer courses.


It could be simply a factor of the day you played, or the time of day.  If they cut and roll the greens out there, they can be very consistent, and quick (getting above the hole on the 1st can be a dangerous proposition).  Like most greens with poa in them, the later in the day the more likely you'll have the uneven nature of the grasses affecting putts.


A year and a half ago they started dialing Pac's greens in for the USGA Women's Four Ball.  There were no complaints, and by all accounts they were in as good condition as many long time caddies had seen them in years.


All in all, I still feel they roll pretty well for a resort that can see 16,000 rounds in a month, with Pac receiving more than its lion's share of that play.  We're also at the tail end of the summer busy season with very little rain, so in the yearly life cycle of that grass you're probably seeing it at its most stressed.


Sorry I missed your visit, have been out of town since last Wednesday.


Sven

[Joshua Pettit]

David,

Years ago I remember Ken Nice (head greenkeeper) telling me the difference in the seed mix they used for each course.  As they built each course they continued to increase the amount of Fescue.  As I recall Bandon Dunes was seeded with all Bent, Pacific Dunes was mostly Bent and some Fescue, Bandon Trails was mostly Fescue and some Bent, and then by the time they did Old Mac they used all Fescue and no Bent.  And I believe they continued with the same 100% Fine Fescue blend on the Preserve and the Punchbowl.

Not sure if the seed ratio they used on Pacific can account for the current state of the greens, but it's probably a factor.

[Sven Nilsen]

Josh:


I'll let others (paging TD) chime in on the ratios you mentioned, but I don't think you have it quite right for Bandon and Pac.


Suffice it to say, the greens at Pac are a mix of grasses (and strains of particular types).


Sven

[Joshua Pettit]

Josh:
I'll let others (paging TD) chime in on the ratios you mentioned, but I don't think you have it quite right for Bandon and Pac.
Suffice it to say, the greens at Pac are a mix of grasses (and strains of particular types).
Sven

You might be right Sven.  It may have been that they did use a little bit of Fescue in the Bandon mix, and then a bit more for Pacific, but I'm fairly certain the Fescue in the Pacific mix was still less than fifty percent. 

[David Davis]

@Sven


Thanks for your message. I actually asked a couple people if you were around including Michael Chupka who was kind enough to come out show me how golf is played. Congrats by the way!


I certainly am not criticizing, I've played PD several times and this was indeed the most stressed I've seen the greens. I know Jeff Sutherland and will mail him directly to ask as I know he's doing a great job out there. I didn't play BD this go so perhaps it was in similar shape. The greens roll fine though slow compared to other visits I've had. I'd guess BT has more bent grass in the greens as they are really in great shape at this time of the year. Old Mac would seem to have more fescue.


The greens even at the current state are better than most of what we run into here in Europe.


As I've stated, Bandon has a special place in my heart! Love it there.

[Tom_Doak]

Josh:
I'll let others (paging TD) chime in on the ratios you mentioned, but I don't think you have it quite right for Bandon and Pac.
Suffice it to say, the greens at Pac are a mix of grasses (and strains of particular types).
Sven

You might be right Sven.  It may have been that they did use a little bit of Fescue in the Bandon mix, and then a bit more for Pacific, but I'm fairly certain the Fescue in the Pacific mix was still less than fifty percent.

Sven is correct.  We used the same mix for Pacific Dunes that they'd done for Bandon Dunes ... my preference would have been to use a higher % of fescue, but everyone was happy with Bandon's mix when it was brand new, so we didn't rock the boat.  However I did mention to Ken Nice my thoughts on the matter, and when they were building Bandon Trails, they started to use more fescue as they went; the 18th green was 100% fescue, and it worked, so that's what we did for Old Macdonald.


I played in March and the greens at Pacific were being maintained for Poa annua, and were pretty good then.  Likely a heavy summer of play has taken a bit of a toll on them.

[Pete_Pittock]

My recollection from a previous thread is that Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes are on a maintenance program that promotes poa annua. Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald are on a different maintenance program. I have not played at Bandon Resort for a number of years and can't do it until I am eligible with a doctor's note.

[MClutterbuck]

Has anybody done Poa Annua greens from day one? It would seem like the best choice for the West Coast.

[Rob Marshall]

Playing the game in upstate New York, all the greens are poa to some degree. Never understood the whining and complaining about them. Unless you are playing late in the day they are fine. Get over it and hit the putt. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Has anybody done Poa Annua greens from day one? It would seem like the best choice for the West Coast.

Other than overseeding with poa triv, for winter months, poa cannot be seeded.

[Eric Johnson]

Has anybody done Poa Annua greens from day one? It would seem like the best choice for the West Coast.

Other than overseeding with poa triv, for winter months, poa cannot be seeded.

'Two-Putt' ABG seed is available. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Was out on Pac today for the first time in about a week and a half.  Greens were quick and smooth, even the front of 11 and 12, two spots that tend to be the first to show a hint of an issue.


There's probably a lesson here in making or even hinting at sweeping generalities regarding conditioning based on a one and done visit.  I know David phrased this in the state of a question, but the general tenor was that there was a problem with the greens (an odd suggestion when paired with his comparison to "most of" what he sees in Europe).


Sven

[John Connolly]

There's probably a lesson here in making or even hinting at sweeping generalities regarding conditioning based on a one and done visit.

Sven

If we did away with sweeping generalities, this site would have about 4 posts a day. 

[Mike_Trenham]

Has anybody done Poa Annua greens from day one? It would seem like the best choice for the West Coast.

Other than overseeding with poa triv, for winter months, poa cannot be seeded.

My understanding is that you can spread poa plugs aggressively during aeration, I think this is how my club got the bent out of its new greens for consistency.  Also some clubs in Philadelphia that fighting the invasion of poa do not aerify until June when the bent is growing better, so can't you do the opposite to promote its invasion?

[Jerry Kluger]

I was playing a course in Arizona and the super told me their greens were a type of poa. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Has anybody done Poa Annua greens from day one? It would seem like the best choice for the West Coast.

Other than overseeding with poa triv, for winter months, poa cannot be seeded.

Last I knew, LACC aerified in August, the hottest month of their year to minimize any poa encouragement of establishment.


My understanding is that you can spread poa plugs aggressively during aeration, I think this is how my club got the bent out of its new greens for consistency.  Also some clubs in Philadelphia that fighting the invasion of poa do not aerify until June when the bent is growing better, so can't you do the opposite to promote its invasion?

[JimB]

Has anybody done Poa Annua greens from day one? It would seem like the best choice for the West Coast.

Other than overseeding with poa triv, for winter months, poa cannot be seeded.

Interesting you mention poa trivialis. I had never heard of it before I read a bulletin in the Olympic Club locker room sometime around the '87 Open regarding the rebuilding of the 3rd green. It mentioned that they seeded with Poa triv to facilitate the transition to poa annua. No idea how it turned out and have not heard of another club using this technique since.

[MClutterbuck]

Has anybody done Poa Annua greens from day one? It would seem like the best choice for the West Coast.

Other than overseeding with poa triv, for winter months, poa cannot be seeded.

It is not necessary to seed. If Oakmont (please somebody confirm I am accurate) removed their green surfaces, worked on their greens and regrassed with the original poa, a similar process can be done on a new green taking poa annua from a nursery. This would conceivably have the advantage of being a more adapted variety with less seeding which is a major problema for poa.


Second, I am not an agronomist or an expert, so I ask: if poa annua spreads by seeds (birds, golf shoes, wind, even with sand when top dressing) on all golf courses that have the right climate, I can not think of a reason why you can not seed poa annua directly. My guess is it might be slow and bumpy for some time.

[David_Tepper]

For anyone interested, here is a lengthy blog blog on growing/managing poa greens:

http://www.kmgcgolfconsultant.com/2010/01/how-to-grow-great-poa-annua-golf-greens.html

[Don Jordan]

I played there in late June loved the course but the green conditions at Pac Dunes were disappointing. I ended up playing a second round on Old Mac rather than Pac Dunes and a lot of that was down to green conditions. This isn't meant as a criticism I loved the place and planned a week of my 4 weeks in the US just to get to Bandon and would do it again in a heartbeat. Value for money wise it was far better than Pebble Beach but with the Aussie dollar on the slide I needed to play 36 a day to make it good value.