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Thomas Dai

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2016, 03:15:06 PM »
Am I correct in believing that the 16th hole was altered sometime in the last few years? When
I eas at RCD last year it looked like some big machines had graded the fairway and the bunkering, green surrounds and putting surface looked well, kinda newish.


There was a comment earlier about the par-3 14th being Redan-like. Not convinced of this.


Atb

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2016, 04:01:39 PM »
I think I remember our caddie telling us that 16 was redone after Tiger played the course and drove the green with a 3 iron.

Martin Toal

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2016, 03:32:34 AM »
The old 16th was a shorter hole, with a tee shot from a high tee playing down to a valley floor with the green on a small ridge above, with a small bunker protecting the left side of the ridge. It was a par 3.5, and could be considered as either a bit of a nothing hole or a blessed relief after the hard work before it.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 05:01:39 AM by Martin Toal »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2016, 04:31:57 AM »


Dai,

I made the comment that the green was sort of a Redan the way it sloped and was angled.  The rest of the features of the NB Redan are of course not there.

Apparently the 16th is completely new as of 2003.  It was moved as it was too close to the 17th tee according to the history in the yardage guide.  Here's a link to a picture of the former hole. 


http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/gorse-on-the-16th-hole-of-the-royal-county-down-golf-club-in-circa-picture-id72962657


Looks like it was shorter at 265 yards and angled from left of 15th green toward the property line around where the 17th tee is.   




Ed Tilley

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2016, 07:17:00 AM »
There are a number of pictures of the old 16th on Frank Pont's golfarchitecturepictures website - see below link. I played it in 2002, and the new hole a few years later. The old one was a bit odd and a bit dangerous hence the change to what is, I think, a far superior hole.

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/N%20Ireland/R%20County%20Down/pages/Royal%20County%20Down%20223.htm

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2016, 09:33:19 AM »
Some old pictures of the 16th (from Frank Pennink's 1952 book "Golf" (Homes of Sport Series)) and aerials of the 17th and 18th (from the Centenary Book):

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=49997.50
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 09:35:04 AM by Dónal Ó Ceallaigh »

Sean Leary

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2016, 10:28:31 AM »
Been about 9 years for me since I have been there. Just loved it, certainly in my top 10, maybe top 5. I remember being amazed by how good the back nine was vs what I had expected. Had heard about the front, but man the back is almost as good. Greens were way flatter than Portrush for example, but in perfect condition. 9 was a bit of a disappointment for me (heresy, I know).  A very good hole but prettier in pictures than great, IMO. 16 felt a bit modern in style, and 17 pond is unfortunate, but other than that, whole place is near flawless.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2016, 10:52:17 AM »
Does anyone know any specific history of the pond on 17?

JESII

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2016, 11:07:46 AM »
Also regarding the pond...does anyone think it would be a better hole if it were just fairway all the way? Letting people drive it 50 yards closer to the green, just because, doesn't seem to justify it as a better hole if...

Hunter Rigsby

Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2016, 12:13:23 PM »
I took a look at the scorecard online - the ladies tees are 6249!


I was fortunate to spend two nights at the Slieve Donard and have a wonderful 36-hole day there last August...


Regarding the yardages, I played the morning match with my moderns and the afternoon with my hickories.  With hickories, at ~6,200 yards, the course is a stern test.  I remember playing the morning match and taking note of where the forward tees were along the way - wondering how I was going to hit some of the shots required (specifically some of the forced carries) and navigating my way around the links making every attempt to avoid the bunkers.


I will say one of my favorite parts of our 10-day trip were the hickory matches we had at Ballybunion Old, Royal County Down, Dooks, Royal Portrush and Portmarnock - especially the look and reaction from the caddies and starters when we pulled up to the first tee...


Not relevant to the topic, but I think I may have caddied for your group during one of those rounds!


As far as RCD, it is truly a surreal golfing experience.  It's hard to put a finger on what makes it so, but it just feels different than anywhere else I've played.  I would say the same about Lahinch (just with a different, indescribable aura about it).


Hunter, small world.


My group concluded that the best caddies we had the entire trip were at Royal County Down and Portrush.  It's been said too many times to count that a good caddie (especially in Ireland and Scotland) makes the experience so much better and I couldn't agree more.


Ouch, ya cut me deep!   :P  I'm trying to remember who in your group I caddied for.  Whoever it was playing modern equipment but there were two guys in the group playing hickories. 


You're right though, a good caddie is worth quite a bit.  The problem is that golfers have different ideas of what constitutes a good caddie and said caddie has about 15 minutes to figure out what the player wants on any given day.  Not the easiest task even for the good ones. 

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2016, 05:32:38 PM »
Does anyone know any specific history of the pond on 17?


Jerry,


The pond is mentioned in the 1895-96 Golfing Annual and is also present on the 1892 and 1907 layouts. Unfortunately, it's not stated if it is natural or man-made.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2016, 04:19:24 AM »
The old 16th was a shorter hole, with a tee shot from a high tee playing down to a valley floor with the green on a small ridge above, with a small bunker protecting the left side of the ridge. It was a par 3.5, and could be considered as either a bit of a nothing hole or a blessed relief after the hard work before it.

I have a jpg of the Strokesaver page for the old hole but the site won't let me upload it.


Here is the Strokesaver for the previous version of the 16th hole that Martin forwarded to me for posting.


Interesting to note the donut-shaped water feature. It is also in Frank Pont's pictures as well as in the older aerials that Donal linked to.  The feature is still there today, although I didn't notice it in passing (see the foreground near the right side of the fairway in the picture below).  Surely nobody would have built such an odd feature.  It'd have to be natural, wouldn't it?  Perhaps the triangular pond on the 17th is natural too. 












Martin Toal

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2016, 05:00:51 AM »
Brian


I have no evidence to support it, but back in the day it was generally believed that both ponds were natural.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2016, 05:04:33 AM »
The pond on the 17th regularly gets flak but it would be interesting to know if the water height there is the same as that of the pond to the right of the 16th and the pond to the left of the 14th.


Areas slightly inland of dune complexes frequently have lower lying levels including the likes of wetlands, rushes, ponds etc so perhaps the ponds at RCD reflect the overall water table?



atb

Niall C

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #64 on: October 10, 2016, 08:22:25 AM »
FWIW both Silloth and Prestwick have ponds that were gravel pits that had been dug out for the gravel. Could this be the case at RCD ?

Niall

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2016, 02:11:31 PM »

Donald Steele was retained in 1997 to make some changes to the 18th, which evidently was considered an "ordinary finishing hole".  The changes to the hole were summarized as a "programme of extensive bunkering".  Prior to 1997, the 18th apparently was a fairly wide fairway bending a bit left with extensive bunkering, including some cross  bunkers that seem somewhat consistent with the bunkering patterns on some of the front nine holes. (see the aerial below provided by Donal)




The programme of extensive bunkering led to a design that is reflected in this 1998 Strokesaver map provided by Martin.  I count 24 bunkers, although six of those on the right seem to NLE.  The fairway also looks considerably narrower than the fairway in the aerial above. 



The current yardage guide shows 18 bunkers and the fairway is narrow and gets narrower as it nears the green, some 20 yards or less from 100 yards from the green on in.  The 18th is the longest of the three par 5's but is not long at all by modern standards.  It's defense lies in the narrow fairway, very penal bunkers and rough and a difficult green.





From the tee the fairway receded into the distance with Slieve Donard mountain looming in the background, but the location of the green not at all evident.  Perhaps the white pole to the left of the roof in the distance marks the location?  The topography is a bit bland after the drama of the first 16 holes, but the waving field of tawny fescue rough provides some colour and a different look than the rest of the course.  There appears to be plenty of room to drive the ball if you don't go too deep where the fairway narrows down.




From down the fairway and zoomed in you see that the white pole is indeed an aiming point, but the green is tucked away left behind the bunkers and dune ridge.  The bunker on the left looks particularly penal.  From a playing perspective, I cannot comment on how to play the second shot to the narrow part of the fairway, as I snap hooked a 3 wood off the tin roof of a maintenance building about 150 yards short and left of the green.  In a stroke of luck it was sitting pretty on mowed grass a couple of yards from the green side end of the building.  A nice drawn blind 5 iron into the wind ended up on the green and rendered the narrow fairway and difficult green approach shot moot. 

From closer in, you can see more of the green.  The picture makes the fairway look wide here, but it is no more than 20 yards.







From in front of the green, you can see the crowned nature of it and the steep drop offs to the sides.  The drop off continues around the back of the green as well.




This close up of the left side of the green better shows the steep drop off with a rough covered knob thrown in for fun.  In retrospect, the knob is a reminder to me that there were innumerable places on the course where a random bounce or roll can land you in some serious jeopardy where a few feet away might be just fine.  I guess I got mostly benign kicks and rolls, but the potential for scoring disaster is there.  I think I'd prefer to play match play or Stableford matches on this course.





So, ends the tale of my RCD adventure.  There was a certain sadness in leaving as it is unlikely that I will ever make my way back.  RCD offers such a fine blend of setting and scenery and pure dramatic links land and conditioning and golfing challenge and accessibility that it is easy to see why it is one of the very top courses in the world.


Michael Graham

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2016, 03:52:38 PM »
Bryan,

Thank you for the wonderful tour. I've thoroughly enjoyed readying it over the past few days. I'll hopefully make it to RCD in the not too distant future. It certainly looks like a course you need your 'A' or at least 'B+' game to score well on. Did you manage to win your match?  ;D

Thomas Dai

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2016, 05:31:24 AM »
Bryan,


Thank you for a wonderful and extremely comprehensive photo-tour of a magnificent although very challenging course. Sometimes the tees you play from don't seem to matter that much, but at RCD that is certainly not the case.


As to the 18th hole, it has an evil green if you require an up-n-down, fall-aways everywhere and with a 'Don King' tufted mound on the left side as well.


What do folks think of the 'Don Kings' at RCD (and at other courses)? Good feature? Bad feature? Over-used? There seem to be quite a few of them at RCD.


Atb

Andrew Lewis

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2016, 10:36:34 AM »
I took a look at the scorecard online - the ladies tees are 6249!


I was fortunate to spend two nights at the Slieve Donard and have a wonderful 36-hole day there last August...


Regarding the yardages, I played the morning match with my moderns and the afternoon with my hickories.  With hickories, at ~6,200 yards, the course is a stern test.  I remember playing the morning match and taking note of where the forward tees were along the way - wondering how I was going to hit some of the shots required (specifically some of the forced carries) and navigating my way around the links making every attempt to avoid the bunkers.


I will say one of my favorite parts of our 10-day trip were the hickory matches we had at Ballybunion Old, Royal County Down, Dooks, Royal Portrush and Portmarnock - especially the look and reaction from the caddies and starters when we pulled up to the first tee...


Not relevant to the topic, but I think I may have caddied for your group during one of those rounds!


As far as RCD, it is truly a surreal golfing experience.  It's hard to put a finger on what makes it so, but it just feels different than anywhere else I've played.  I would say the same about Lahinch (just with a different, indescribable aura about it).


Hunter, small world.


My group concluded that the best caddies we had the entire trip were at Royal County Down and Portrush.  It's been said too many times to count that a good caddie (especially in Ireland and Scotland) makes the experience so much better and I couldn't agree more.


Ouch, ya cut me deep!   :P  I'm trying to remember who in your group I caddied for.  Whoever it was playing modern equipment but there were two guys in the group playing hickories. 


You're right though, a good caddie is worth quite a bit.  The problem is that golfers have different ideas of what constitutes a good caddie and said caddie has about 15 minutes to figure out what the player wants on any given day.  Not the easiest task even for the good ones.


Hi Hunter -


The guy with modern equipment was Matt Schmidt, who also occasionally posts here.


Chris and I played hickories that afternoon, and I suspect one of your colleagues profited nicely after I closed our match -- his sprint after I holed out on 16 green toward the third caddie on the 17th tee suggests something was on the line  ;)


Cheers, Andrew

David McIntosh

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2016, 04:29:02 PM »
Bryan,

Fantastic tour - thanks for taking the time to post this. RCD was pretty high on my list of places to see and having followed your excellent tour with interest I'm even more keen to make it over for a game.

I quite like the 'Don King' mound - looks like it'd add an extra layer of interest to the up and down on 18 if you have the misfortune of finding it. I'm sure people would moan about them being unfair and too penal for a slightly offline shot or that the fall-off area makes scrambling difficult enough (particularly if the pin is on the side it was when Bryan played) but as anyone familiar with links golf will know, good shots aren't always necessarily rewarded.

Having not played at RCD, I can't say if they're overused across the course in general though.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2016, 07:09:58 PM »

Niall,

The histories refer to natural dunes being there in the beginning so I doubt that gravel quarrying was the genesis of the ponds.  They are really quite small as well, not consistent with any quarrying activity.

Michael,

As I was playing on my own, my match was with myself and with the course.  I certainly felt like it was a wining experience.   ;D

Dai,

I liked the "Don Kings" and felt they fit in with the overall look and style of the course.  Although there were many, I didn't experience a single one through luck or prudent play.  I expect that there was at least a stroke penalty to pay if you got in one, so in that sense they are a real hazard.  If you don't like randomness in your golf course experience you probably wouldn't like them.  I think you would really like them.



Mark Pearce

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2016, 04:52:44 AM »
Bryan,


A superb tour, even by your high standards, thanks.


This just underlines to me that RCD should remain on my top 5 must plays, it looks truly wonderful.


Mark
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Colin Shellard

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2016, 06:41:12 AM »
Just wanted to add my thanks Bryan. Your report brought back some great memories from about 6 years ago for me - RCD remains top of my list of golfing experiences, and a course that I don't think I would ever tire of playing.


The whole time there was great, from the pro-shop & clubhouse staff, starter, putting green, the hole course is magnificent and the views are quite frankly jaw dropping. The weakness for me was actually the inside of clubhouse, which I found the be a little unaccommodating (dining type table and chairs rather than comfy seats and sofas) a very small gripe though  ;)


I would definitely hope to return one day and play some more of the courses close by (Ardglass etc). On our trip we drove back North after our round staying and playing at Portrush (which had a very comfortable clubhouse).


Thanks again

Col

Thomas Dai

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2016, 07:57:41 AM »
RCD is always reported on very highly.


Tee to green I can readily understand this as it's extremely challenging and thought provoking etc, even more so should you play from a set of tees that are inappropriate to your personal level of game.


But, are the putting surfaces themselves in the same league as all other aspects of the course? Not the trueness of roll but the internal contouring.


Atb
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 08:00:51 AM by Thomas Dai »

JESII

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Re: Golfing Heaven - Royal County Down
« Reply #74 on: October 13, 2016, 02:12:44 PM »
Thank you Bryan...this was a great tour. Glad the weather cleared just as you were getting ready to play. We're all troopers, but sometimes a little luck is warmly accepted.


I played in the 1999 British Amateur here. At the time, I was caddying at Pine Valley and still felt RCD was the best course I had ever played. I paid some dues in the yard for that but oh well.





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