Was East Lake Better in 1955?

[Will Lozier]

I have been looking at old aerials of Atlanta and looked at East Lake in 1955 v. today. I've only played it once and been to the Tour Championship a number of times and have always thought it was stale for a Ross course, particularly the bunkering in both style and placement.


While I have enormous respect for the fact that it was saved and for what the redesign and spiffing up has done for the community, and conceding that the current version is probably much better than the mid '80's East Lake, how good was it in 1955 and/or in it's original iteration? Judging from the earliest aerials on offer, I would say it looked much more interesting.


http://www.historicaerials.com/?javascript=&

[Mark_Fine]

Will,
I have not studied the old aerials or the earlier design. As such I can't tell you which version of East Lake was better?  It might very well be the current one.  What I can tell you, however, is while it might have been a "Ross" design at one point, it is not anymore.  It is now a Rees Jones course. 


There are certain courses that you would send some to so they can see what a well restored Tillinghast or Flynn or Mackenzie or Watson,... course would look like.  East Lake would not be on the short list for a Ross.
Mark 

[Chris Cupit]

I am pretty certain that prior to the 1963 Ryder Cup the course was renovated by George Cobb.  I think any Ross that may have been there is pretty well gone.  This is purely from memory and I could be 100% wrong but I thought East Lake was Bendelow, then Ross, then Cobb and now Jones in terms of the architects who have made significant changes.

[MCirba]

For what it's worth, here's what I have regarding East Lake architectural attribution.   

Tom Bendelow 1906
George Adair/H.H. Barker/Harry Atkinson w/ some minor consulting from C.B. Macdonald 1912
Donald Ross 1913
George Cobb 1962
Rees Jones 1994,2010

[Mark_Fine]

As I said, I wouldn't send someone to East Lake to show them a restored Donald Ross course    Clearly a lot of architects have had their hand in that one. 


What I don't like is when courses like this are touted as "Ross" (as some of the commentators have done).  Kind of like some of them did touting the greens at Pinehurst #2 as vintage Ross - NOT   

[Will Lozier]

Will,
I have not studied the old aerials or the earlier design. As such I can't tell you which version of East Lake was better?  It might very well be the current one.  What I can tell you, however, is while it might have been a "Ross" design at one point, it is not anymore.  It is now a Rees Jones course. 


There are certain courses that you would send some to so they can see what a well restored Tillinghast or Flynn or Mackenzie or Watson,... course would look like.  East Lake would not be on the short list for a Ross.
Mark

Mark,


Having grown up playing a Ross gem in Springfield CC, it is clearly not Ross other than the routing which very well might be attributed to Bendelow and has the look of Rees all over it. I guess my question is unanswerable to an extent but, what do you think looking at said aerials? Does there appear to be more interest?


Mike,


If the aerials are labeled correctly, Cobb did his work prior to '60. I would guess Ross' bunkers are what was there prior, in '55.

[Nigel Islam]

[size=78%]Will,[/size]



    I recently played there and I was trying to figure out exactly how the 6th (15th?) green was constructed prior to 1963. It also appears as if the green on 12(3?) was moved closer to the bunker that currently fronts it, and the 17th (8 in the tournament) was moved closer to the lake. It appeared as if the 12/17 greens were in very close proximity which is a technique Ross often employed. This is actually a fascinating topic. I personally don't believe it a tired course. For a "tour" course it is quite playable, and the majestic clubhouse sits in the middle of the routing perfectly.
   For the record my confusion on numbering the holes stems from the fact that the change for The Tour Championship is likely permanent.

[BCrosby]

Will -


The routing of EL is not Ross. Geo. Adair (with assistance from H H Barker) published in late 1912 (see Am Golfer) a proposed re-routing of the old Bendelow course. That routing, with some minor tweaks, is the current routing.


Adair was the now forgotten father of golf in the SE. He was, before his death in 1921, the most powerful figure in Atlanta golf. His son Perry grew up with Jones. he supported Alexa Stirling and was himself an excellent player. Interestingly, at his funeral O B Keeler lauded Adair for the "new" course he had built at EL.   


Before the 1912 re-routing, there was unhappiness with the Bendelow course, primarily because the ninth hole did not return to the clubhouse. Adair brought in Travis and CBM to get their ideas. There is no record of any specific recommendations they made to Adair. (The EL clubhouse burned in the mid-1920's and most early records seem to have been lost. So who knows what might have been in old file cabinets.) 


Adair notes (again, Am Golfer) that Ross was brought in to do a "sophisticated bunkering scheme" in 1913. Adair goes on to list those most responsible for EL as Ross, Barker, S. Maiden and finally himself. I think that ordering is pretty much the reverse of the truth given what we know about the original Adair routing from the previous year. My skepticism is heightened by the fact that there are no Ross plans for EL. There is no correspondence or notes at the Tufts archive relative to EL. (There are few Ross courses for which there is no record at Tufts.) I suspect that Adair was eager to have Ross' name attached to EL (rather than his own) for all the predictable reasons.


In short, Ross had a hand in the current course. But if principal design attribution is normally given to the person who routed the course, and that routing remains more or less intact, EL is better described as an Adair/Barker course with assistance from Ross, though the nature and extent of Ross' assistance remains unknown.


Ross did design a second course at EL in 1928 for which detailed drawings and notes exist. That course (arguably the better of the two) closed in 1976 or so. Perhaps Ross dabbled on the first EL course while building the second? If so there is no record of it. I would note that Ross later listed both EL courses as his designs. As Bob Jones home courses, there were plenty of incentives to be associated with EL, but as to the first (and current) EL course I think it was basically a fudge on Ross' part.


So I do not think EL can be called a Ross design or even mostly a Ross design. The evidence for what he did at EL is sparse at best. The evidence for what Adair and others did is ample.


Bob


P.S. The above assumes we are talking about EL pre-Rees. He made some changes circa 1996. Many of them I think were mistakes. His changes to the 10th hole in particular. But Rees did not change the basic routing of EL. Adair's routing is still basically intact. 


   

[A.G._Crockett]

Will -


The routing of EL is not Ross. Geo. Adair (with assistance from H H Barker) published in late 1912 (see Am Golfer) a proposed re-routing of the old Bendelow course. That routing, with some minor tweaks, is the current routing.


Adair was the now forgotten father of golf in the SE. He was, before his death in 1921, the most powerful figure in Atlanta golf. His son Perry grew up with Jones. he supported Alexa Stirling and was himself an excellent player. Interestingly, at his funeral O B Keeler lauded Adair for the "new" course he had built at EL.   


Before the 1912 re-routing, there was unhappiness with the Bendelow course, primarily because the ninth hole did not return to the clubhouse. Adair brought in Travis and CBM to get their ideas. There is no record of any specific recommendations they made to Adair. (The EL clubhouse burned in the mid-1920's and most early records seem to have been lost. So who knows what might have been in old file cabinets.) 


Adair notes (again, Am Golfer) that Ross was brought in to do a "sophisticated bunkering scheme" in 1913. Adair goes on to list those most responsible for EL as Ross, Barker, S. Maiden and finally himself. I think that ordering is pretty much the reverse of the truth given what we know about the original Adair routing from the previous year. My skepticism is heightened by the fact that there are no Ross plans for EL. There is no correspondence or notes at the Tufts archive relative to EL. (There are few Ross courses for which there is no record at Tufts.) I suspect that Adair was eager to have Ross' name attached to EL (rather than his own) for all the predictable reasons.


In short, Ross had a hand in the current course. But if principal design attribution is normally given to the person who routed the course, and that routing remains more or less intact, EL is better described as an Adair/Barker course with assistance from Ross, though the nature and extent of Ross' assistance remains unknown.


Ross did design a second course at EL in 1928 for which detailed drawings and notes exist. That course (arguably the better of the two) closed in 1976 or so. Perhaps Ross dabbled on the first EL course while building the second? If so there is no record of it. I would note that Ross later listed both EL courses as his designs. As Bob Jones home courses, there were plenty of incentives to be associated with EL, but as to the first (and current) EL course I think it was basically a fudge on Ross' part.


So I do not think EL can be called a Ross design or even mostly a Ross design. The evidence for what he did at EL is sparse at best. The evidence for what Adair and others did is ample.


Bob


P.S. The above assumes we are talking about EL pre-Rees. He made some changes circa 1996. Many of them I think were mistakes. His changes to the 10th hole in particular. But Rees did not change the basic routing of EL. Adair's routing is still basically intact. 


 

Wow; great stuff!  Thank you, Bob.

[MCirba]

Nice post Mr.  Crosby.

[Mark_Fine]

Yes great post Bob.  That is the kind of research I like to see.  I wonder if Rees knew all of this??

[BCrosby]

A bit more about the history of EL. It is a classic "dog that didn't bark" story.

In 1927 or so the City of Atlanta asked Ross to visit to look into building some golf courses for the city. (The project never happened, btw.) Ross' host for the visit was O B Keeler who was a member at EL, famous as Bob Jones' amanuensis and a journalist steeped in knowledge of golf and golf courses of the era.

Keeler wrote an article for The Atlanta Journal about the Ross visit. He notes the sites they visited, the people they met, etc. Keeler went on to note golf courses that Ross had designed. He mentions Pinehurst, Oak Hill, Oakland Hills and some others.

Keeler does not mention East Lake. That absence doesn't prove anything. The absence of evidence never does. But it strongly suggests that in 1927 EL was not seen as a Ross course by the man most knowledgeable about golf in Atlanta at the time.

Bob

[Eric LeFante]

I'm always disappointed when the Tour Championship comes around. To me, East Lake is the most straight forward and visually unpleasing course the PGA Tour goes to each year. I've never been there but I can imagine the topography is quite nice in person. The bunkering is extremely bland, which is surprising because Rees Jones has created dramatic bunkering at some of his other renovations.


Are the reasons below why the Tour continues to come back to East Lake?


- Coca Cola is the main sponsor of the event, and world headquarters is Atlanta (maybe some top executives are members at EL)
- The players say they love the course and the club
- The course is long enough and there is enough room to host a modern tour event
- The club is a wonderful example of how golf and the people involved in the game can revitalize the worst of neighborhoods

[Mike_Young]

As BC says, most of the ATL guys that were around feel the course across the street was better and was a Ross.  As for why the present course is referred to as a Ross....well he doesn't charge for his name the way a Nicklaus or other sig would .   While it can be argued the old course was better, there is no argument that the present conditions are as good as the tour will see most years.  That is what the average golfer sees and relates to with EL.  Adding the "Ross" to it for him just makes it that much better.  And there is no doubt the reverse of the nines will make it a much better tourney this year...
The sad thing about EL is there is not a club atmosphere since the rework.  It is so corporate that no one seems to be a member.  Just watch sometime and the front of the clubhouse will be littered with Clubgloves covers waiting for rides tot the airport....just big corporate golf.....

[Will Lozier]

Bob,


Thank you for your most informative and thoughtfully written responses - you are one of my favorite posters on this board! I always look forward to reading what you've offered! We have to play sometime here in ATL!!


Cheers

[BCrosby]

Would love to get together, Will. Still teach at Lovett?


PM me.


Bob

[jeffwarne]

Just two letters different.....

[Bret Lawrence]

Bob,


Great history on East Lake.


Do you know what year the club installed grass greens?


Will,


In the 1955 aerial, it looks like both East Lake courses had two sets of greens per hole, or one large green split into a winter green and summer green.  The Ross plan for the EL No. 2 course shows every hole having a winter green and summer green.  Perhaps, it's all those greens that make the aerial look so interesting?  By 1960, 10 of the holes on EL No. 1 had been consolidated to one green.  By 1968 you can see that the remaining eight holes have been transformed by Cobb.  Thanks for pointing out this aerial.  I find it very interesting!


Bret

[BCrosby]

Bret -


I don't think EL ever had sand greens. Pics of even the old Bendelow course from 1906 show grass greens. Let me know if you have found something to the contrary.


The old EL greens, like all grass greens in the SE, were common Bermuda (Or "fence post Bermuda" as an old super, long since passed away, used to call it. Bermuda grass was introduced into the SE in the 19th century as forage for livestock. It was only near fence posts where you could find healthy stands that could be transplanted to a golf course.). Even in its summer glory common Bermuda was incredibly rough and ropey. So much so, that choosing between sand and Bermuda greens would not have been an easy choice in the day.


The dual greens at EL are fascinating. How they were first set up and eventually consolidated is not something about which careful records were kept, as far as I can tell. But all along the way the club was making subtle and not so subtle changes to the greens and their positioning.


Bob

[Bret Lawrence]

Bob,


Thanks for the response.  I have never come across any information regarding sand greens at EL.


I was curious as to the history of grass greens being developed that early in the southeast, but your response answered many of my questions. 


Bret


There is a pretty cool aerial on the CharlieYates golf site that shows the double greens more clearly:  (you will need to scroll down the page to see the aerial)


http://www.charlieyatesgolfcourse.com/aboutus/history/

[Will Lozier]

Bret,


Thank you!! Amazingly I have never seen this before on the Charlie Yates site! Very cool!


Cheers

[BCrosby]

Charlie Harrison, one of the great amateur players of the late 50's and a current resident in the EL neighborhood, told me that the downhill par 5 and the par three that followed (see bottom left corner of the Ross drawing) were two of his favorite holes. He said they were both terrifying. That part of the No. 2 course is cut off in the aerial.


If we bought Charlie a beer, I bet he would go through the holes on No. 2 for us.

[Will Lozier]

Charlie Harrison, one of the great amateur players of the late 50's and a current resident in the EL neighborhood, told me that the downhill par 5 and the par three that followed (see bottom left corner of the Ross drawing) were two of his favorite holes. He said they were both terrifying. That part of the No. 2 course is cut off in the aerial.

If we bought Charlie a beer, I bet he would go through the holes on No. 2 for us.

That would be fascinating! Just the rough look and perhaps more diverse topography of the #2 course makes me think it might have been the real gem of the two! And yes, the two-green system looks to have provided distinctly different approaches for each hole - should have made for a really interesting place to be a member.


Got your PM Bob...will give you a shout this week.


Cheers

[Sven Nilsen]

A series of articles and other information on the origins of the course, which help to explain the early years and the convoluted evolution that took place.

Oct. 25, 1905 Atlanta Constitution -



Jan. 1906 Golfers Magazine -



June 3, 1906 Atlanta Constitution -








July 1906 Golf Magazine -



Dec. 1906 Golf Magazine -

[Sven Nilsen]

From 1907.

Jan. 1907 Golf Magazine -



Feb. 11, 1907 The Sun -



Feb. 11, 1907 New York Tribune -



March 1907 Golfers Magazine -





April 1907 Golf Magazine -








May 1907 Golf Magazine







Dec. 1907 Golf Magazine -