A Discussion On Green Speeds

[David_Tepper]

From Lorne Smith's Fine Golf Newsletter:

http://www.finegolf.co.uk/what-is-fine-golf/value-in-finegolf/green-speed-facts/

[John Kavanaugh]

Once again members are asked to pay dues all year just so a course can be prepared at an elite level once or twice a year for strangers to play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Also, who says that three putts aren't fun. Let's say that you and everyone in your group three putts four time a round. That makes you unhappy four times while getting the satisfaction of watching your opponent suffer twelve times. That equals eight times happy, or for the simple minded. Not fun, not fun, not fun, not fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun and more fun.

[Ryan Coles]

I think he's copying and pasting paragraphs from pitchcare and doesn't know what he's talking about. They've been knocking the 2mm guy from Ealing for years and his greens are still the best most have ever played in the uk.

His rhetoric is tiresome. He should put his plus four clad feet up and have a pink gin.

Nostalgia ain't what is used to be.

[Jason Topp]

My preferred green speed depends on the nature of the greens.  If greens are built to handle higher speeds, they truly come alive when fast. 

The downside is that such an approach leaves little opportunity to create interesting greens that are still playable.  My favorite types of greens are those that tilt towards a corner.  Such greens create interest on the approach because the player is constantly tempted to go after the pin but knows that missing on the wrong side can be very difficult.  Putting presents the choice between taking a high line and making sure of a two putt and a more direct route which invites a three putt.  Once those greens get too fast, however, the battle is to keep the ball on the green and they get silly.  Asa result we get goofy tiers which I find to be more target oriented.

The issue is magnified with wind and stroke play to the point that we have Open Championships delayed due to WIND.  The Open should only be delayed due to wind if a hurricane is approaching Scotland.

I also would like to see more variation in the green speeds professionals encounter.  Making a slow three foot putt with grain in the mix is much more difficult than the smooth three footers they face now.   

[Ryan Coles]

Lots of his 'fine' courses are full of poa and generally soft.

He overlooks that however and features them anyway as they have dog bowls and they're all jolly good chaps.

[Sean_A]

I thought all this stuff was common knowledge and common sense?  I don't care too much about the angle of three putts and slowing the game down.  I am far more concerned about about the quality of the green in terms of interest (slope, shape, contour), variety and firmness.  Making a flat green run fast sounds about as exciting as asking where is Ealing and why hasn't anybody I know extolled the virtues of the quality of their greens?


Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

https://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/the-2mm-debate-agronomic-investigation.html

Greg Evans has been ruffling feathers for about 10 years in uk greenkeeping circles. Ealing is a very average course so perhaps that's why you've not heard of it. Good players love it rave about the purity of the greens.

He actually speaks a lot of sense to me and his method works at his course. He says that poa is a fact of life inland and rather all this crap from fine golf about 'weeds' he set out and succeeded in disproving conventional wisdom when it comes to uk greenkeeping. The STRI are now saying much the same 10 years on.

He's at pains to point out that he can push speeds at Ealing as they're flat but I'm more interested in how he produces a true surface year round on poa.

[Carl Nichols]

Also, who says that three putts aren't fun. Let's say that you and everyone in your group three putts four time a round. That makes you unhappy four times while getting the satisfaction of watching your opponent suffer twelve times. That equals eight times happy, or for the simple minded. Not fun, not fun, not fun, not fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun and more fun.

Especially if you play snake.

[Sean_A]

https://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/the-2mm-debate-agronomic-investigation.html

Greg Evans has been ruffling feathers for about 10 years in uk greenkeeping circles. Ealing is a very average course so perhaps that's why you've not heard of it. Good players love it rave about the purity of the greens.

He actually speaks a lot of sense to me and his method works at his course. He says that poa is a fact of life inland and rather all this crap from fine golf about 'weeds' he set out and succeeded in disproving conventional wisdom when it comes to uk greenkeeping. The STRI are now saying much the same 10 years on.

He's at pains to point out that he can push speeds at Ealing as they're flat but I'm more interested in how he produces a true surface year round on poa.

Ryan

While I fully understand clubs going with what they have...poa and purity are not two words which go hand in glove 

Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I was a member at Four Streams most of us noticed that when the greens ran less than 10 they were pretty boring. They were designed to be fast. When they are less than ten they don't break much. At Ballyhack if the greens run much over ten they are too fast because of the slope and undulation. It all depends on what the architect had in mind, what the super thinks is best for the course, and what the members want.

[Ryan Coles]

https://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/the-2mm-debate-agronomic-investigation.html

Greg Evans has been ruffling feathers for about 10 years in uk greenkeeping circles. Ealing is a very average course so perhaps that's why you've not heard of it. Good players love it rave about the purity of the greens.

He actually speaks a lot of sense to me and his method works at his course. He says that poa is a fact of life inland and rather all this crap from fine golf about 'weeds' he set out and succeeded in disproving conventional wisdom when it comes to uk greenkeeping. The STRI are now saying much the same 10 years on.

He's at pains to point out that he can push speeds at Ealing as they're flat but I'm more interested in how he produces a true surface year round on poa.

Ryan

While I fully understand clubs going with what they have...poa and purity are not two words which go hand in glove 

Ciao

Which is why this guys results are worth checking out for those interested.

[Sean_A]

I have seen a few courses with outstanding poa greens in the UK...when the weather co-operates.  Hence, poa and pure did not go hand in glove. I didn't find the greens interesting, just fast.


Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

Sean

This isn't a thread about interesting greens. It's about maintenance and speed as was the newsletter which David posted.

You've not visited the course in question or read his account of the last 10 years, hence why despite what you may think, you have neither seen, nor do you know it all.

[Don Mahaffey]

Not getting into all the issues Ryan raises as I know nothing about the Greenkeeper or course...but, the title of the blog is interesting...NEW FACTS?
That could have been written 20-30 years ago. What exactly are the new facts presented?

[Ryan Coles]

Don

Over here he was told he would lose the greens at his hoc etc and a lot of people over here were up in arms and waiting for him to fail. The trades magazines were full of greenkeepers saying he would fail. That level of hoc, sand applied and frequency of aeration may be 30 years old in the US over here it hadn't been.

[Niall C]

As a non expert on all things agronomy, let me suggest that most greens on older Scottish courses by large tend to have fairly subtle or minimal contouring and the greens could be doing with being a good bit faster a lot of the time. When I read comments, largely from US participants berating the move for ever quicker green speeds, I can't help wishing we could do with a bit of it over here.


Niall

[Ryan Coles]

As a non expert on all things agronomy, let me suggest that most greens on older Scottish courses by large tend to have fairly subtle or minimal contouring and the greens could be doing with being a good bit faster a lot of the time. When I read comments, largely from US participants berating the move for ever quicker green speeds, I can't help wishing we could do with a bit of it over here.


Niall

Niall

I and I think most golfers fully agree. Faster offers less resistance and are smoother.

http://www.gregevansmg.co.uk/gcsaa-dec-2013-article.pdf

The above is a better article. I'd listen to Evans over fine golf any day.


Where are these UK greens that are too fast?

[Sean_A]

You lost me Ryan.  Mr Finegolf outlines the issues of fast greens very well...I thought this is what the thread was about. Is there something you disagree with?  Feed, water n' cut gets fast poa greens.  If you can afford it, its sustainable.  There is no magic moment here.  You are the one who brought up Evans.  I don't have an issue with what he is doing because the course must have flat, uninteresting greens.  All I said was given the choice, I will take interest and 10 over flat and 12.  In other words, I ain't impressed green speed...its an age old thing.


Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

Sean

The article from fine golf and 2mm is a reference to Ealing.

The article doesn't set out the maintenance and turf issues very well. That's the point you're missing and regurgitating 'feed and water' does what they do.

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting stuff. Thanks for highlighting and the various links.

Anyone know what Ealing GC's greens are like from circa Nov-to-April?

atb

[Sean_A]

Sean

The article from fine golf and 2mm is a reference to Ealing.

The article doesn't set out the maintenance and turf issues very well. That's the point you're missing and regurgitating 'feed and water' does what they do.

Ryan


Yes, I get it. 


What you aren't getting is that


1. Using the same methods, having the greens at a higher cut surely must be cheaper...maybe a few of the greenkeepers wouldn't be needed. 


2. Very importantly, how firm are the greens?  Does the level of firmness enhance the architecture? 


I can fully accept that Ealing's greens may be good poa greens.  However, in my experience, poa greens are nowhere near the quality of fescue greens simply because poa doesn't doesn't hold up as well with firmness year round....they simply do not drain as well...even the USGA spec greens I know at Redditch and Edgbaston...though these two are far better than they used to be. 


I couldn't give a tosh about discrediting any greenkeeper.  I simply think the focus of greens in England should be on year round performance and that means firmness is essential.  If the Ealing guy is getting his greens as firm as is reasonably possible....more power to him. 


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Certainly, what Greg Evans has done at Ealing is very impressive and though I was very sceptical when I first heard about it I have to admit having seen the results (quite a few years back now) on a cold, dank day in early November I was convinced that he had produced a decent putting surface. However, they were not firm, even given the time of year and the greens were devoid of interest being on the whole very flat. Though possible at Ealing I cannot see this working at most courses that I know.

I would also point out that speed is not the most important factor nor is smoothness/trueness of roll. Rather, it is consistency of result in both the length of the roll and more importantly direction/line especially across a slope.

Sean,

in my experience is that you are correct that traditional UK greens are cheaper to maintain and that they can produce a firmer playing surface. I would however suggest that talking about fescue greens is somewhat misguided (even though many do) as though the goal is to maintain a playing surface to favour fescue, the mix that will be there will be fescue, brown top bent and poa plus small amounts of other grass sorts. Poa is only a weed if you are trying to produce a tradition UK playing surface and it is present in too high a percentage. Otherwise, it is a valuable part of a mixed sward and has its roll to play.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon


Nope...I am usually fully behind going with what you got.  I only mention fescue as a comparison as to what is ideal in terms of firmness and what should be the bar.  We all know poa isn't ideal, but that doesn't mean max firmness for the surface isn't important if the greens are going to perform as well as can be expected year round.


Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

Sean

As Evans says, double cutting, rolling etc to get reasonable speed are all labour intensive and add cost. He doesn't do any of that.

His real secret and no doubt where the additional cost comes from is the amount of sand dressing applied and the resulting effect on the blades. The problem of most uk greens, USGA spec or not is organic matter. If he was a feed and water merchant his would have inches of it, but he doesn't.

Where better to spend money than on the greens. He has disproved the stress and non sustainability argument.

Inland greens cut at 4 or 5mm as fine golf bang on about are miserable to putt on.