#13 at Sand Hills

[George Pazin]

Thanks for the response. (btw, "some" was supposed to be "sort", not sure if I typed it wrong or my phone "fixed" it...)


So, if it were softened to a 20 yard false front, instead of 40-50, would that suffice? Or would 10 be better? Any chance it was simply the conditions of the day that determined the greater than intended penalty?

[Scott McWethy]

Thanks for the response. (btw, "some" was supposed to be "sort", not sure if I typed it wrong or my phone "fixed" it...)


So, if it were softened to a 20 yard false front, instead of 40-50, would that suffice? Or would 10 be better? Any chance it was simply the conditions of the day that determined the greater than intended penalty?

I think a 20 yard false front is fair for a hole of that length.  It still requires a fantastic shot even just to get that point.  I've been fortunate enough to have played several rounds at Sand Hills, so I've seen all types of weather conditions.  It certainly affects the way the hole is played, but the slope of that area in front of the green is weatherproof from what I've seen.

I know I've commented quite a bit about this hole and have been critical, but I don't think it's a bad hole.  It's a very hard hole and like others have said, if you can pull off a great shot, it is a great feeling.  I've just seen way too many players (mostly 10 or less handicaps) not execute the perfect shot and end up making a big number more often than not.

I think it's the one hole that doesn't really fit in with the other 17 holes out there.  The course is very fair and playable from the back tees on the remaining 17 holes.  Just my opinion.  With that being said, I still think it is the best collection of golf holes I've ever played. 

[Ari Techner]

The false front isn't really 40-50y, you have to hit a shot well short of the green for the ball to roll back down the hill.  There's a little false front to the green but also a shelf before the hill that balls that roll off the false front end up staying.  I find that spot short of the green as well as the green side bunker on the right as the 2 places to miss that give you the best chance to get up and down for par.  Hard hole?  Absolutely.  IMO the hardest vs par on the course.  Bad hole?  Not even close in my mind. 

[John Kavanaugh]

George,


Have you been to Sand Hills? Last time I asked, in 2012, you said you hadn't. Is a red head feeding you questions?

[Parker Page]

What's wrong with a par 3.5?

George, there's nothing wrong with a 3.5 par.  I just wish there were some options.  Even something as brutal as #17 at Whistling Straits lets you miss right as far as you want, but to get to that back pin placement, you'll need to take on Lake Michigan.  #16 at Cypress is the obvious other candidate for this question.  I didn't dare raise the question, though, because I've never played it. 


Tom, it's helpful to hear that you wish #17 had more options.  It seems like designing a short par 3 with options would be one of the most difficult challenges in the field.  Not to blow sunshine in your face, but I think #3 at Ballyneal is a good example of a short 3 with options.  #7 at Pebble seems like the best example or maybe #11 at Shinnecock.

[Ari Techner]

What's wrong with a par 3.5?

George, there's nothing wrong with a 3.5 par.  I just wish there were some options.  Even something as brutal as #17 at Whistling Straits lets you miss right as far as you want, but to get to that back pin placement, you'll need to take on Lake Michigan.  #16 at Cypress is the obvious other candidate for this question.  I didn't dare raise the question, though, because I've never played it. 


Tom, it's helpful to hear that you wish #17 had more options.  It seems like designing a short par 3 with options would be one of the most difficult challenges in the field.  Not to blow sunshine in your face, but I think #3 at Ballyneal is a good example of a short 3 with options.  #7 at Pebble seems like the best example or maybe #11 at Shinnecock.

Can you explain what you believe the "options" are on 11 at Shinnecock?   I've played there twice in the last year and I don't see any options other than hit the green.  Likewise 7 Pebble though I haven't played Pebble in a few years.

[Shane Wright]

I'm not sure why people are surprised at all the different opinions.  I think that is partly why golf is beautiful.  Groupthink is so boring. 


I have had lots of discussions with friends about our favorite holes at Sand Hills.  And my buddies all know that 13 is one of my favorite holes at Sand Hills.  I think it is a stunning hole. I think it is a world class par 3. If you think it is too hard, I just think you need to put on your big boy pants and stop whining. You are at Sand Hills after all. It's OK if a par feels like a birdie.  At a minimum, I would think this group would care less about par.  There are so many half par holes at Sand Hills in the right direction for the player (1,7,8,14) that I don't understand why one half par hole in the other direction is a bad thing. 


At the end of the day, none of you (with a couple of exceptions) are going to get paid to play golf.  So do you really want all easy par 3's for your ego?  Because your 74 at Sand Hills is not a 74 during a tour round at TPC whatever. 


I think the hole has a beautiful setting.  I think the green is MORE than ample for the length of the hole.  I think the bunkering is a work of art.  I think the left side of the green gives you a good spot to come into.  I think the hole is deceiving, land it too short and it is coming back, land it just past that and you have an easy up and down.  Push it because of the wind and you are screwed.  Yank it left and it's bogey minimum.  Go long and there is room.  But at the end of the day, if you somehow get a 3 on 13, you will feel like the rest of the round doesn't matter quite as much, or that bad hole you had earlier is now negated. 


At the end of the day, I think architecturally, it's really hard to design a really good long par 3.  This is one of them.


As a good friend used to say to me, "If you are scared, buy a dog."

[Parker Page]

Can you explain what you believe the "options" are on 11 at Shinnecock?   I've played there twice in the last year and I don't see any options other than hit the green.  Likewise 7 Pebble though I haven't played Pebble in a few years.

The options are going to be within a tighter shot pattern because you have a wedge/short iron in your hand. But with 7 at Pebble, you have options to play a variety of shots because of the wind. You also have a choice to play to the middle of the green or try to attack a back or right hand pin placement. You could also play it quite safe in the front left corner but leaving yourself a long putt or chip.


11 at Shinnecock asks a bit of a different question. If you have to favor a miss, what kind of recovery shot would you prefer? A deep bunker shot into a receptive slope, or a putt/chip from short grass to a green sloping away from you? To me, with a short iron in your hand, this is an interesting strategic question.

[Ari Techner]

Can you explain what you believe the "options" are on 11 at Shinnecock?   I've played there twice in the last year and I don't see any options other than hit the green.  Likewise 7 Pebble though I haven't played Pebble in a few years.

The options are going to be within a tighter shot pattern because you have a wedge/short iron in your hand. But with 7 at Pebble, you have options to play a variety of shots because of the wind. You also have a choice to play to the middle of the green or try to attack a back or right hand pin placement. You could also play it quite safe in the front left corner but leaving yourself a long putt or chip.


11 at Shinnecock asks a bit of a different question. If you have to favor a miss, what kind of recovery shot would you prefer? A deep bunker shot into a receptive slope, or a putt/chip from short grass to a green sloping away from you? To me, with a short iron in your hand, this is an interesting strategic question.

I think both examples are a major stretch. 



7 at Pebble offering options because of wind is no different than 17 at Sand Hills.  Also that green is small and your talking about playing to different parts of it as an intentional miss.  That's just not realistic for 99% of all golfers especially in a windy setting.  Having the option to chase tucked pins vs going for the middle of the green is no different than any other golf hole par 3 or not.

Your 11 Shinnecock example is even worse imo.  I cannot ever imagine anyone choosing to hit a shot over that green and trying to get up and down from there.

[JESII]

I would agree that #7 at Pebble and #11 at Shinnecock offer no real options other than try to hit the green.


Haven't been to Sand Hills but #13 sounds like a cool, very difficult hole.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I spent a week at SH about eight years ago. Interestingly enough Bill Coore was there. I had played 13 about six times and never had held the green from the member tees. I didn't know how to play the hole and neither did the three other guys in my group, all single digit players. At dinner Bill came over and said hello to our host, whom he knew. He sat down for a bit with us. I asked about that hole. I simply asked, "Bill, what kind of shot did you envision for the tee ball on 13?" He smiled and said, "Well, we just smoothed out the dirt a bit and threw grass seed down." Ok. Done . Answered. Still don't know how to play it. It is the one hole that gives me the most fits.