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Carlyle Rood

Shortest Great Hole (contest)
« on: September 28, 2003, 09:54:29 PM »
What do you think is the SHORTEST great hole?  I'll give you a little latitude.  You can nominate the SHORTEST great par 3, 4, and/or 5.

You can submit the nominations, and I'll pretend that I'm qualified to select a winner.  ;D

A link to a picture may help your candidate, but I'll consider cogent written arguments too.

In a nutshell, I'll probably select the shortest of the great candidates.  (It doesn't have to be from an acclaimed course to be great, however.)

C
« Last Edit: September 29, 2003, 10:58:38 PM by Carlyle Rood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2003, 10:09:02 PM »
Carlyle,

My initial thoughts

Par 3
6th NGLA
7th PB
2nd GCGC
18th PHCC
14th Maidstone
8th Maidstone
11th Shinnecock
11th Atlantic
9th PV
13th Merion

Par 4
1st NGLA
2nd NGLA
1st GCGC
11th Piping Rock
3rd Applebrook
2nd and/or 8th Hidden Creek
12th PV
8th PV
10th Merion

Par 5
13th ANGC
18th NGLA
7th NGLA
18th The Creek
4th GCGC

larry_munger

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2003, 10:11:37 PM »
Pat, have you ever been west of the Mississippi? ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2003, 10:22:05 PM »
Larry Munger,

I did say, "my intitial thoughts".

And I did include the 7th at Pebble, but forgot the 15th at CPC, the 11th at Pacific Dunes, and many many others.

With time, idle time, I'll come up with some others.

That's the trouble with making lists like this and hosting a party.  You always forget some of the special ones.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2003, 10:23:31 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

ian

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2003, 10:23:37 PM »
Shortest great 4:
Merion West, 275 yards of greatness

ian

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2003, 10:29:15 PM »
126 yard Postage Stamp is the best par 3 I've played. Pebble is shorter, this is better.

Kevin_Reilly

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2003, 10:41:56 PM »
I haven't played a better short par 4 than #7 at Sand Hills.  #14 there is also a good short par 5.  Oh, and #17 is a great short par 3.  Sorry if I'm sounding repetitive!  :D
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Doug Siebert

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2003, 11:22:48 PM »
Ah, someone beat me to suggesting the Postage Stamp.  Kinda figured that one would be brought up pretty quickly...  Gotta toss in #11 TOC.  And while I've never played it, I understand AGNC's 12th isn't too shabby either :)

Harder to think of standouts in the par 4 and par 5 category.  There are a lot of good ones, but thinking of just one or two is hard.  Can I count Cypress' 16th since it was originally conceived of as a short 4 (or at least toyed with as) and a lot of people play it that way (fewer every year with modern equipment, but oh well)    It'd have to be risk/reward to be truly great in my book, if you can whack at it without worrying too much or the risk is so great that almost everyone would leave the driver in the bag it doesn't cut it, IMHO.

I'll just toss at the Cardinal at Prestwick as a wild idea to qualify for both a great short par 5 AND short par 4.  Depending on the wind, its either a mid iron off the tee and short iron in or....well, I've never played it with the wind going the other way, but I'll bet it requires a heckuva lot more than that!  I wonder how far it is to the green from the tee as the crow flies?  Given how strong the wind blows out there, with the right wind direction and today's equipment, I wouldn't be surprised if it is doable.  If one is prepared to lose a half dozen balls trying, that is.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Martin Del Vecchio

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2003, 11:41:27 PM »
My favorite short par 3 is #9 at Myopia Hunt Club.  It's only about 135 yards, but it's just an amazing hole.

Here is a view from the tee:


Here is a view from just off the green:


You can't tell from the tee, and neither picture reveals it, but this green is about 40 yards deep from front to back.  It is only about 10 yards wide.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2003, 12:00:02 AM by intermurph »

Thomas_Brown

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2003, 01:05:08 AM »
If I can take latitude, then I'd have to say the 17th at Tierra Rejada in So. Cal.

It plays 90 yards to a rock hard green that is 5 paces wide.
My SW landed pin high and went about 60 feet by.
Nobody is making birdie on this hole.

Where is my "Tierra Refundo"? :)

A_Clay_Man

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2003, 08:42:28 AM »
Hands down the best par 4 is #9 #9 #9 at Cypress Point!

Par 3 must be # 7 at Pebble...

and the best short Par 5 is ... is... ( a toughie ) but my guess would be 13 at ANGC (pre-rough) In my world now it's the 11th,14th and 18th at Riverview. ;D

THuckaby2

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2003, 09:15:37 AM »
Shivas:

Stick with your guns.  #2 NGLA is the one.  Sure, the card says 330, but that's measured going dead right and then over... I dare say it's at most 290 going straight at it, and assuming one can clear the gunch, one gets a turboboost down to the green... in fact for a guy like you, going LONG is more of an issue than reaching.

That's my nomination then in the par 4 category:  #2 NGLA, one of my favorite holes on the planet.

TH

THuckaby2

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2003, 09:45:13 AM »
Aha!  I get it now.  The issue here is shortest great hole, not greatest short hole.  I should have read your explanation more clearly instead of blowing through it.   ;)

So ok, my bad, as the great Emily Littela said,

never mind.

7 at Sand Hills it is.

TH

Dan Herrmann

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2003, 09:47:15 AM »
Shortest great hole?  #13 at Augusta?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2003, 09:48:52 AM »
Carlyle,

Par 3

# 10 at Inwood  (96-99 yards)

THuckaby2

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2003, 09:54:34 AM »
All right, now I want to win this.

#3 at Studio City Golf and Tennis, Studio City, CA.  70 yards of sheer terror, with overhanging trees causing one to keep it low or else, a steep bank behind the green causing any shot hit long to find its fate in the Wash of Death, and a hellaciously sloped green being the SoCal home of the 4-putt.

 ;D

Sorry, no pics available.

Tiger_Bernhardt

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2003, 10:00:42 AM »
The greatest short hole is the short wedge from my seat to the Georgia coach's mouth as he lost to LSU sat week ago. lol lol lol
I luv 11 TOC, greatest 3 on earth, 15 CPC, 7 PB, 8 Troon, 11 Cruden bay, 6 and 10 Dornoch, 5 at N Berwick I think, 15  at Turnberry, wind can make it play longer than short 3 sometimes, 9 at my own Oakbourne CC. Carlyle It is so nice to see a Georgia Bulldog back out in the light of day. Go Tigers hope to see ya in December in the Georgia dome.
 We should not forget Pat did go to Oregon last year. I just hope we can get him to visit us poor souls in the middle of our land of golf courses called America.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2003, 10:07:32 AM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Jeff_Lewis

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2003, 10:12:54 AM »
Disclaimer: This is a somewhat biased, homer comment.

9 at Quaker Ridge is the most underappreciated hole on the golf course and one of the best short par 3s in the metropolitan area, imho.

6-8 iron depending on the player and the tee, but this is a very very difficult hole. Depending on the pin position and where one makes a mistake, the player can go from thinking about birdie to praying for a putt at par in a heartbeat. A great strategic short hole.

wsmorrison

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2003, 10:24:43 AM »
Par 3
Tie  between Shinnecock Hills #11 and Royal Dornoch #2

Par 4
Tie between Cascades #10 and Philadelphia CC #1

Par 5
Once Upon a Time Augusta #13, the future Rolling Green #7 if my plan gets implemented, for the present, not sure come to think of it, hmmmmm

wsmorrison

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2003, 10:33:54 AM »
Strike the previous short par 4s, how could I forget the 11th at Merion East?

For present short par 5, I'll take the Tom Paul/Gil Hanse remake at #7 Gulph Mills

Carlyle Rood

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2003, 12:02:55 PM »
Shivas is correct.  The contest is for the shortest great hole, and not the greatest short hole.

C

P.S. Tiger_Bernhardt is disqualified because the LSU stadium serves the shortest hotdogs in the SEC--not that it should surprise us.

ForkaB

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2003, 12:09:25 PM »
Par 3--#5, Painswick.  114 yards over a mountain that makes the "Dell" look like the "Dimple"

Par 4--#3 Cruden Bay, as discussed on another current thread.

Par 5--there are no "par" 5's anymore, alas..............

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2003, 12:39:00 PM »
Par 3 - #7 PB
Par 4 - #8 PVGC (Left Green)
Par 5 - #13 ANGC

KLP

A_Clay_Man

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2003, 12:44:30 PM »
I disagree with the esteemed solicitor about #9 at Cypress. It's 265 and not uphill. It's down then up. Which from the tee is level. And how this hole doesn't qualify (or shouldn't) as the greatest, is beyond comprehension.

Michael J. Moss

Re:Best Existing Short Hole (contest)
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2003, 01:16:38 PM »
To me,  the "go, no-go" decision a player faces on a well designed drivable (or almost drivable) par-4 hole is probably the most fun one can have on a golf course. With only 18  holes to lay out, I  love when an architect finds a place for one in their routing.

This past July, my wife and I took a sight-seeing trip to the Pacific Northwest. The grand finale was a round of golf at Bandon Dunes and two at Pacific Dunes. One of the most memorable holes (among many) was the 316 yard, 6th hole at Pacific. The fairway is canted from right to left but the small green is accessible (I'm told) if you keep the ball high up on the right side and then praying for a kick. The risk is a big yawning greenside bunker ringed with gnarly stuff, or what some of my pals call "shmutz."  The green is begging, "Come and get me big boy - if you dare!"

The wind was benign on our first go around, so to defend the reasonable score I had to that point, I decided to lay up. On round number two, the wind was directly behind me. (Predominant wind?) The temptation was too much - with driver in hand, I laced one up the middle - a bad line!  My ball found the shmutz, but I managed to make a great bogey. A better line might have done it, but what makes the hole great is that I 'm still thinking about it. Great fun!

My other two picks are also driveable par-4s. Their inclusion may lead to charges of my being a "homer" but Fenway Golf Club (my former home course) has a pair of beauties.

Their first hole is only 280 yards from the back tees. Maybe it's not a great hole because it doesn't require a torturous risk/reward decision. Nevertheless, it has never been given its due. I think the technology has actually made this hole better as more players are faced with the option. It is well bunkered (they've added a new cross-bunker on the right side about 240 yds out) and has a topsy-turvy green that my youngest brother once 5-putted. (I gave him the tap-in.) I've been told that a member knocked one in the jar no long ago, which represented a Fenway first - a double eagle ace.  

Fenway's 15th is a 305 yds, uphill and slightly doglegged to the left.  I really can't call this drivable because the reward versus the amount of risk is not favorable. Nevertheless, the golfer wants to safely get his ball as close to the green as possible. There is a bunker short and left of the green, which should be avoided, as well as two deep greenside ones. The green is not visible from the tee, but you get a good look at it while playing the 14th hole. The first thing you notice is the small size of the green. It is shaped like a raised upside-down wine bottle - very narrow and pitched from back to front. The front neck of the green seems like it's only a few paces wide, which makes a front pin location the most problematic. The blood pressure test should be administered while standing over the approach shot. It is the most nerve-racking short shot I've ever encountered. Because it's so narrow, left is bad, right as well, and long is death!  Also, because the green is narrow, your angle of attack is very important. Holding the green from either side is very difficult, and if coming out of the rough - forget about it. It's a great little hole.  

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