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MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2016, 03:28:34 PM »
This is an interesting religious war...er...debate, but I have to say the analogies to eating food and having sex simply don't hold up to intellectual scrutiny.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2016, 03:33:49 PM »
Go appreciate the greens at Lookout Mountain without playing them and tell me how that works out for you.


Eliminates three putts!


#ScratchWalker



BTW, I'm thinking of hosting an outing at LMGC where we only walk the course, any takers?

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2016, 03:34:25 PM »
Go appreciate the greens at Lookout Mountain without playing them and tell me how that works out for you.


Eliminates three putts!


#ScratchWalker



BTW, I'm thinking of hosting an outing at LMGC where we only walk the course, any takers?


I might be interested if I can ride.

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2016, 03:35:18 PM »
Go appreciate the greens at Lookout Mountain without playing them and tell me how that works out for you.


Eliminates three putts!


#ScratchWalker



BTW, I'm thinking of hosting an outing at LMGC where we only walk the course, any takers?


I might be interested if I can ride.

+1
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2016, 03:40:40 PM »
Most double digit handicaps I have encountered do need to play a course to appreciate the design. One reason they are such poor players is their inability to conceptualize a shot. As with most things in life those who fail at execution never understand cause and effect until it is too late.


I realize "appreciate" and "understand" are not exactly the same, but would this statement lead us to believe you think that most good architects have to be single digit handicaps?


I tend to believe a double digit handicap is challenged to understand and conceptualize a swing, but not necessarily a shot or a course design.


It has also been my experience that scratch to 4 handicaps are no better in understanding course architecture or conditioning than say a 12 handicap. Most are always focused on how well the course set up to their ability that day. Like the superintendent at my course always says, I can tell who played well by the congratulations I receive on the course conditioning.

Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2016, 03:47:38 PM »
It's rare to go to a great architectural site as a tournament player, but when it happens, one of the treats is the practice round.  Every practice round is about learning target and shot selection, hitting some extra tee shots, approaches and a lot of shots around greens.


A practice round at Royal Melbourne or Kingston Heath when I was younger was a learning experience about how to play the course, but also an opportunity to see the challenges put in place for us.  I hated the time practice rounds took,mbut loved what I could absorb

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2016, 03:55:21 PM »
If an architect doesn't have the opportunity to play a course what would be the best way to view it?
Walk it hole-by-hole from tee-to-green? Wonder around generally and view holes and asoects from different angles? Even walk it backwards from behind the 18th green to the 1st tee? Thoughts?
Atb

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2016, 04:11:21 PM »
I often read on this site that a person can't possibly "get" a course after a single play, but now the consensus is you can "get it" after a single walk. 


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2016, 05:55:07 PM »
If an architect doesn't have the opportunity to play a course what would be the best way to view it?
Walk it hole-by-hole from tee-to-green? Wonder around generally and view holes and asoects from different angles? Even walk it backwards from behind the 18th green to the 1st tee? Thoughts?
Atb


Thomas:


I have gotten a lot out of watching other people play my courses, whether I'm playing with them, or just walking around observing.  [In fact, I did that for a couple of grand openings, including Pacific Dunes, back before my clients wanted to have ceremonial openings.]  It's easier to be in position to see what happens when the ball lands and for the shots around the green, and those are the part of the equation you can't easily project.  I can't understand why anyone would think we can't tell whether a fairway is too narrow, or an approach shot too difficult.


On my year in the UK, when I got to a controversial hole, or just one I couldn't figure out right away, sometimes I would sit down for an hour and watch a handful of groups play through.  I've commented before that some of the shots I saw around the Dell green at Lahinch convinced me it was much more complicated than it looks.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2016, 06:07:20 PM »
I think Tom makes a terrific point here.


If more of the ex-PGA Tour guys had taken their time, put the clubs down, and wandered around a few courses where the average hack is playing, I'd like to think some of the absurd shot requirements and ball buster courses that have resulted would be a bit more playable.. at least for most of the holes on the course...

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2016, 07:49:01 PM »
LOL, lots of good fun here

I was just thinking that after multiple plays you can "get" a course as well as multiple "walks" "Masters" and even better if you are watching a high level amateur competition without massive crowds and maybe walk the fairways and greens "Crump"

a friend from Atlanta told me I had to play ANGC, and I told him I didn't have to although I would love to....can't think of a good woman or food analogy, hahaha
It's all about the golf!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2016, 08:00:58 PM »
Comp me once and I'll love you forever. The raters creed.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2016, 09:30:39 PM »
Designers, artists, architects all have different abilities and see things from different prespectives. It's impossible to straight jacket all of them, each learn in different ways. It's true, that the great ones are in a class by themselves, but then again, how many great ones are there????
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it? New
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2016, 09:57:24 PM »
I had never set a foot on Augusta National before this year and after attending The Masters mainly to see the course I came away quite disappointed that it was exactly what I thought it would be.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 10:35:03 PM by Frank M »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2016, 11:36:54 PM »
William G,
 
Charles Blair Macdonald stridently disagrees with you.
 
Tom Doak,
 
You and Bill Coore possess an inate talent not bestowed upon 99 % of us and you're working with a blank canvas and creating a golf course, not evaluating the finished product in terms of playability.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2016, 10:23:02 AM »
Going to know you don't have to play "links" golf to understand it, just walk a course and you'll have it all figured out. 

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2016, 10:36:53 AM »
If you can't appreciate the architecture through pictures then what is the point of photo tours?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2016, 12:32:30 PM »
There are different levels of appreciation.  I can certainly look at pix to determine if I have any interest in playing the course.  I don't necessarily need pix for this, but in the vast majority of cases, pix help the text or the text doesn't do the job of describing a course well.  Text only tours is a very difficult thing to pull off and at a guess I would say less than five people in history have done it well.  There is truth to a picture being worth a thousand words. 




I would say to properly appreciate courses I need to play them.  I don't need sticks in hand to understand courses, but its a lot more fun when swinging away.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2016, 12:33:15 PM »
On my year in the UK, when I got to a controversial hole, or just one I couldn't figure out right away, sometimes I would sit down for an hour and watch a handful of groups play through.  I've commented before that some of the shots I saw around the Dell green at Lahinch convinced me it was much more complicated than it looks.

I was lucky enough to find a front pin on the 14th at St. Andrew's the first time I walked the course (before I ever played the course). It took a long time and a lot of groups to suggest a way to get a ball to that pin. I wouldn't have figured that out from one play. I would have tried the same ideas and been disappointed. But it did get me looking deeper into the green and studying those contours and not just the roll.

As Tom said above, not everything is going to explain itself to you. Sometimes it helps not to play and be observant of the play around you.

The goal is to understand the riddle, or how to create the riddle, not how to execute the shot.
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2016, 12:11:48 PM »
William G,
 
Charles Blair Macdonald stridently disagrees with you.
 



But Seth Raynor, perhaps, does not.


http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/Seth-Raynor-paradoxical-designer#.U5j5q_mwLYg




Gib_Papazian

Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2016, 02:13:17 PM »
I’ve been forced to give this quite a bit of thought over the years given my endless bouts on the D.L. (for you Brits, the means “Disabled List”). My conclusion is that sometimes playing a golf course can actually be a hindrance in putting together an accurate, thoughtful evaluation.

Tom Doak certainly did not play every course in the Confidential Guide - and that is no way invalidates his opinions. In fact, depending on the individual rater, some would be better served to simply walk the centerline - from tee to green making notes - instead of trying to play.

I’m sorry, 75% of the raters I know just play the golf course - chit chatting the whole time - and then conjure up a visceral number for each category. When you’re buzzing around a layout in 3 hours, there is no time to walk all the way around a putting surface, taking note of the kick points, contours and placement of the hazards.

Clearly, I learned quite a bit over the years from Ron and Brad - but also from having the practicalities beat into my head by Neal Meagher, who is a master at blending art with the nuts and bolts under the hood. In fact, as I thresh this out, I rarely obtain an insight into a golf course by playing it I could not otherwise grok by taking a careful stroll in sequence.

Uncle George and I walked golf courses as often as we played them when polishing off The Evangelist - and thinking about it, I got more out of days when we simply picked apart each hole on foot and discussed the particulars instead of playing it. Not to say I did not dearly love playing with my mentor, but the conversation has more continuity walking around together, without the distraction of hitting shots.

Now, it requires a lot of imagination (and concentration) to do it this way, but my assertion is less than 10% of the raters - playing a course only once - can assimilate enough information to sort out what they have seen. In other words, batting the ball down the fairway, talking about politics or pussy negates the entire point. This is work, not play - an intellectual exercise, not a relaxed stroll with a disengaged brain.

You can only learn so much, approaching an evaluation on a macro scale. The difference between good & really notable is found in the fine details. That little hump, roll or fallaway that escapes notice when rolling along looking at the view - or trying to figure out whether to have sushi or steak in a strange town.

I’m also going to agree with Tom D. about the importance of also watching others play the hole. Every foursome, tottering by, provides some insight into how different skill levels attack the arrangements. And sometimes, no matter how much thought (even multiple plays) I put into something, the solution still escapes me.

Holes that, inter alia, I still cannot figure out: #7 at Pac Dunes, #11 at Shinnecock, #1 at NGLA, #16 at Bandon, #12 at TOC, #10 at Riviera, #7 at Rustic Canyon, #10 at Apache Stronghold, #16 at Prestwick.

On the other hand, you can make a cogent argument that - unlike contemplating a work of static art like a painting - golf architecture is a work of interactive art, like the experience of looking at a Lamborghini vs. driving it around a track. Both points of view have absolute validity . . . . .         
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 04:51:46 PM by Gib Papazian »

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2016, 04:49:46 PM »
I think if you have a world class sense of course architecture, then walking is 90% enough to provide a solid assessment of the ground and architecture.   But there is still no substitute for being in the arena.  Would say the same thing about sports writers who have never played the game at the highest level. 

Gib_Papazian

Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2016, 05:20:51 PM »
James,

So, by the same logic, must one be a skilled artist to write as an art critic? I would say the best sports writers have rarely played any sport at the highest level.

Think about the term "highest level" for a minute.

I cannot write about Indy Racing unless I competed against Fittipaldi?

Both George Will and Charles Krauthammer can fairly be described as baseball experts, yet neither can either hit or throw a curve ball.

Bill Simmons wrote a definitive book on basketball and my guess is he couldn't score a single basket one-on-one against even a marginal Div III guard.

Darwin was a fine golfer, but Dobereiner and Herb Wind were hardly crack players. Seth Raynor was not really a golfer at all . . . .

Careful about that litmus test there . . . . Rickey Henderson is the single most exciting lead-off hitter in history, but couldn't spell cat if you spotted him the first two letters. Or maybe he can replace Vin Scully after this season - it cannot be that big of a leap from playing American League ball to broadcasting in the NL.  ;-)


 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2016, 05:37:44 PM by Gib Papazian »

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2016, 07:18:27 PM »
I think walking vs playing a course is an irrelevant comparison in most cases. Each have their place.

I am thinking about it more in terms of "spending time to get to know a course". If you have half an hour and use that time to drive through the course with a cart, then you will certainly be able to appreciate design and architecture more than the person, who plays three holes in that time. But less than the person who plays all 18 holes in four hours and takes a couple of pictures and notes. But the guy playing three holes might know more than a person sitting on the first tee for an entire day and watching every group hit off.

Now, let's assume I have four hours and get a choice of playing vs walking. I'll play, because perhaps THE most important measure of architecture and design is the amount of fun that players have on the course. And how could the fun to play a course be experienced better than by playing it?

Another very important part of architecture and design is the flow created by the routing. This is also experienced better through playing, because as a walker I am going here and there to study details. But if I were to evaluate the bunkering of a course, I would choose walking precisely to not be bound by the flow.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: To appreciate the design and architecture, do you really need to play it?
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2016, 07:30:29 PM »
James,

So, by the same logic, must one be a skilled artist to write as an art critic? I would say the best sports writers have rarely played any sport at the highest level.

Think about the term "highest level" for a minute.

I cannot write about Indy Racing unless I competed against Fittipaldi?

Both George Will and Charles Krauthammer can fairly be described as baseball experts, yet neither can either hit or throw a curve ball.

Bill Simmons wrote a definitive book on basketball and my guess is he couldn't score a single basket one-on-one against even a marginal Div III guard.

Darwin was a fine golfer, but Dobereiner and Herb Wind were hardly crack players. Seth Raynor was not really a golfer at all . . . .

Careful about that litmus test there . . . . Rickey Henderson is the single most exciting lead-off hitter in history, but couldn't spell cat if you spotted him the first two letters. Or maybe he can replace Vin Scully after this season - it cannot be that big of a leap from playing American League ball to broadcasting in the NL.  ;-)


 

You lose the argument just by bringing up Bill Simmons. 

None of your analogies apply to the study of golf courses.  you're talking about the play of other sports in a relatively static arena.  Not the actual analysis of non-static playing fields.

No one knows the Green Monster better than the guys that played in front of it.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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