[Randy Thompson]

Visually they do say "golf" in an elegantly simple and very pleasing way; green design/arcitecture at its stripped-down best. And it is striking how much, even for an average golfer like me who only rarely is able to hit the shot that I'm visualizing, the back-tiered green impacts club and shot selection and decision-making. We often speak of "fun" golf courses and about "options", and for me when I play golf, it is those kind of selections that are fun and those kind of options that have the most relevance for/to my skill-set. And meanwhile, better golfers like Pat are made to sweat a little more than I am because they are looking for a birdie chance/putt while my goals are more modest. All around, a terrific tool in the architect's bag of tricks; I wish I saw more of them (though not on Par 3s)
[/quote

Peter,
Why the lack of love for use on par 3´s. Whats the difference.

[Joey Chase]

On a slight twist of the OT, at my club here in Switzerland, we have at least two holes with a lower back tier.  I have observed so many players struggle to reach these locations.  On one hole in particular, the 17th, the hole location is quite small and directly behind it is a grass bunker 3 feet below the putting surface.  Every time I play the course with this back right location, I seem to find that hazard.  It really requires confidence in your approach shot which, for most is a longer iron.  You must play short and let it release to that position or it will never hold.  There is a slope on the right side of the hole feeding into the green that helps with this play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joey,
 
Do the conditions on the golf course assist or impede in running the ball to the back tier ?

[Randy Thompson]

Patrcik,
Welcome back, I was starting to fall asleep. I am getting ready to open three new holes at a club and two of them are par three`s and I ended up incorporating back tiers on both greens. While defense of par certainly adds validity during the consideration process of what will be done and why, there are some other elements or factors that for me justify their existence. If used in conjunction with a fairly big green, I think it helps provide the alternative of making a fairly easy- enjoyable hole for most or a ball busting difficult hole depending on the pin location and distance. Hopefully, in the future they will reserve these tiers for professional’s tournaments or set the hole up with an acceptable short yardage for all. One of these tier is surrounded by only grass and just a little bold but the other hole I pushed the limit on bold and protected the tier with bunkers on both sides and mounds behind it. Par doesn`t matter of course but put the pin back and the tee back and you could have a nice 235, yard Par 4. However, in front of the tier is a normal good size green with subtle movement and should be a fun hole for most from 150 to 190 yards. I also feel the more emphasis you put on the putting game, the more chance you have of closing the gap between high and low handicappers. Do you agree with that?

[Peter Pallotta]

Randy: I was about to answer your question (which I just saw) and then I read your post to Patrick.  In a way, you took the words out of my mouth.  For me, Par 3s with an upper back tier and the pin set back there are just too hard -- or should I say, harder than their Par 4 equivalents in terms of giving me a chance to successfully hit a good shot. On neither a Par 3 or Par 4 do I have the distance control or accuracy to try to fly a shot to a back pin and hold the green; but when I'm coming into Par 4s, I can at least try to take more club and swing easier and flight the ball lower so that it might hit the green and roll up onto the back shelf, and I can use a number of different clubs, a 6 or a 5 or a 4 iron depending on contours and wind etc. in order to pull it off. On an average length Par 3, however, an average  golfer like me simply doesn't have that choice, and so simply doesn't have that shot. If the pin is on the back shelf 160 yards away, my only shot/option is to take a 7 iron and fire right at it and hope for the best; I would have no idea how to try to hit any other shot with any other club over so relatively short a distance.

But as I say, you seem to have already anticipated this challenge for golfers like me, since in your post to Pat you suggest that the upper-back pin placement be reserved for tournament/top-flight play. I think that makes sense. I'd just toss out this idea, i.e.  that perhaps many average golfers would occasionally like to take a shot at the back pin., but if they are like me they would find the shot easier on a 190 yard Par 3 than on a 150 yard par 3;  my 3 or 4 irons fly lower anyway, and I'd have a better chance of getting a 3 or 4 iron to a back pin (on a 190 yard hole) than I would a 7 or 8 iron (on a 140-150-160 yard hole).   

Peter         

[Joey Chase]

Joey,
 
Do the conditions on the golf course assist or impede in running the ball to the back tier ?

First off, glad to have you back and, secondly glad to get a response in green. 

We try to keep the conditions firm and fast, so yes, the approach shot is best played using the approach on the right to reach the hole location on the 17th.  The other lower back position I mentioned earlier is the 11th hole and that hole location is very much a different animal.  You are asked to play a long iron for most, preferably from the left side of the fairway to a well guarded lower position that must carry a bunker buttressing the green.  It is all carry, but also comes with a backstop that assists the lower ball flight.  I will try to get some pics in the next day or two if I can

[corey miller]

At Sleepy Hollow #12, the new hole created by Gil Hanse and George Bahto they created a slightly offset double plateau green with the normal shelf large front and a back pin (bunker on side) as well as a very small short right. 


The green sits on the tail end of a par 5 with a creek hazard to navigate on the second shot.  Most average golfers need to lay up in front of creek which sits about 60 yards in front of this hole thus making it a three shot.

For the better players, they can reach in two and certainly create a better angle should they carry hazard on second shot.  Thus I would think the relative difference for a good as well as thoughtful player would be less than the difference for the average player.

The results for the MGA Met open three years ago were :

back location  5.44  shots
front-right       5.199
front               4.937

seems to me the front right plateau which is tiny should be the hardest, a real sucker play for most but perhaps they played more conservative? That said, the day of that pin had a strong wind that certainly allowed the golfers to get closer.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Why is this any different than defending par with just a very tough pin position on ANY given green?


A "sucker pin"? Assuming that the greens staff only puts the pin on the back shelf once a week or so....


This thread could be titled, "How effective are sucker pins at defending par?"


sometimes a player knows that par is good score on a hole and that it will be, from time to time, necessary to make a good lag two-putt from 35' to achieve par. Should you wish to challenge the flag, then be prepared to be rewarded for your success or penalized for your bid at glory.


Why is this any different than a front pin position on a green that slants from back to front with perhaps a false front? Hit a safe shot above the hole and you risk missing your putt and watching it roll off the green a la Crystal Downs.


By the way - in a thread about the Road Hole last year, both Tom and Pat were very critical of those posters who were at all fixated on "par" for any given hole.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why is this any different than defending par with just a very tough pin position on ANY given green?
 
Because failure to reach the back upper tier on the approach puts an enormous pressure on two putting, an equivalent pressure not achieved with a "tough pin position"



A "sucker pin"? Assuming that the greens staff only puts the pin on the back shelf once a week or so....
 
But, it's not a "sucker pin"
It's a hole location on at tier that presents a more difficult, precise and/or well planned approach

This thread could be titled, "How effective are sucker pins at defending par?"
 
No, it couldn't, but, if you'd like to start a thread along those lines, feel free to do so.

sometimes a player knows that par is good score on a hole and that it will be, from time to time, necessary to make a good lag two-putt from 35' to achieve par. Should you wish to challenge the flag, then be prepared to be rewarded for your success or penalized for your bid at glory.
 
The back upper tier presents a unique challenge.
One of the reasons has to do with the consequence of going long.
Another with the consequence of being short.
 
If you've ever had a long putt that must climb a fairly steep slope and then settle close to the pin, you know that that's a far more difficult challenge than lagging a 50' putt on a relatively flat green.

Why is this any different than a front pin position on a green that slants from back to front with perhaps a false front?
 
Because of the consequences for marginal failure to attain the upper tier.
If I hit it short of your hole location, I have a relatively benigh recovery to the hole.
I can use a putter, or a metal wood to putt, or I can chip it.
 
If I go long on an upper tier the challenge is exponentially harder,
and, if I go long with your example, I just have a long uphill putt, with no steep
slope to climb.
 
Hit a safe shot above the hole and you risk missing your putt and watching it roll off the green a la Crystal Downs.
 
Being faced with a downhill putt is a rather benign consequence compared to going long on a green with an upper back tier.
 
At worst you'll 3 putt in your example.
 
With an upper back tier and going long, you bring X and a 3 putt into the equation.


By the way - in a thread about the Road Hole last year, both Tom and Pat were very critical of those posters who were at all fixated on "par" for any given hole.....
 
That's irrelevant.
 
It doesn't matter if you're playing match or medal play, the back upper tier presents a unique challenge to getting the ball into the hole in the fewest strokes possible.

[Ian Mackenzie]

EVERYTHING you say describes a "sucker pin"....


Smart players hit away from them knowing that a longer 2-putt will then be mandated. Agrgressive plays can be made but downside risk enters the equation for sure as you point out.


front pin positions with front/back sloping greens with false fronts present a similar Dilemna just like #8 at Shoreacres or #4 at Chicago GC. crystal Downs takes that to extremes at times, but the point is brutally made when you are 18' from the pin in 2 and end up with a 6, as your 3rd shot is suddenly a chip from 30 yards away.


Should you wish to debate uphill putts vs downhill putts and the plus/minus of each, then please feel free to start that thread. You may get a missed bag result. Who knows...?


Par defended. Ego blow delivered. Lesson learned. Uphill or downhill, go ahead and take your 2-putt from 30'and move on to the next tee. Whether you are better fitted to spin one down the slope to the pin or the next guy is adept at a dead arm release and run up hill shot (or a perfect dart),  only a well-crafted apprach will open the door to a high conviction birdie opportunity.

[Patrick_Mucci]

EVERYTHING you say describes a "sucker pin"....
 
It's not a "sucker pin"
How many MacRaynorBanks plateau and double plateau holes have you played ?

Smart players hit away from them knowing that a longer 2-putt will then be mandated.
 
Smart players do NOT play away from them, that almost always guarantees a bogey.
It's not that the putt is longer, but, it also has to navigate the precipitous slope to the upper tier, then come to rest close to the hole.
 
3 and 4 putts are common for those who play away from them
 
Agrgressive plays can be made but downside risk enters the equation for sure as you point out.


front pin positions with front/back sloping greens with false fronts present a similar Dilemna just like #8 at Shoreacres or #4 at Chicago GC.
 
Whoa, now you've added a false front to greens that slope away from the golfer.
That would imply that the green you describe is an elevated green and not one that merely slopes away from you.
 
crystal Downs takes that to extremes at times, but the point is brutally made when you are 18' from the pin in 2 and end up with a 6, as your 3rd shot is suddenly a chip from 30 yards away.
 
Perhaps that's more reflective of your game, than mine.
at 18' from the hole, six paces, I'm not making a 6


Should you wish to debate uphill putts vs downhill putts and the plus/minus of each, then please feel free to start that thread. You may get a missed bag result. Who knows...?
 
Back upper tiers are about more than putting, but, playing away from the upper tier will almost guarantee a 3 putt.  And, if you should miss your shot, the one you want to play away from the back upper tier, what then ?  Now double bogey or worse looms large.
 
So that I can better understand the context of your reply, what's your handicap ?

Par defended. Ego blow delivered. Lesson learned. Uphill or downhill, go ahead and take your 2-putt from 30'and move on to the next tee.
 
So you're so good that you can place your ball only 10 paces from the hole cut on the upper tier ?  Who are you kidding, you're not that good.
 
Whether you are better fitted to spin one down the slope to the pin or the next guy is adept at a dead arm release and run up hill shot (or a perfect dart),  only a well-crafted apprach will open the door to a high conviction birdie opportunity.
 
The thread isn't about making a birdie, it's about defending par.
 
At 6 paces from the front hole location, on a slightly down hill putt/rescue, I'll make par far more than you will by playing away from the upper back tier of a plateau hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian,
 
A good or perfect example of how a back upper tier defends par is the 9th hole on the Shore Course at Monterey Peninsula CC.
 
It plays from 158 to 187 to a green that's about 43 yards in depth.
The front lower tier is about 15 yards in depth, then a steep slope probably crests at about 20 yards from the front, leaving almost 23 yards for the upper tier.
 
If you play to and land on the lower level, as you insist, there's a 95 % chance that you'll 3 putt, since your ball will probably be 60' from the hole and faced with a very steep slope on greens that putt at about 11-13
 
If you miss the lower level, chances are that you'll make bogey or worse.
 
Since the PGA Tour Pros only hit about 75 % of the greens, chances are your attempt to hit the lower level will be unsuccessful, leaving you with bogey or worse.
 
Ergo, the back upper tier has been incredibly effective at defending par.

[Michael Felton]

Ian,


The difference between Pat's example and a sucker pin IMO is that a sucker pin tries to entice the player to go for it. It looks inviting, but it really isn't, because if you miss by a fraction, you're in serious trouble. The upper back tier on the other hand I find normally entices the player to play safe to the front part of the green, because it looks troublesome. Probably more so than it actually is. You play safely to the front part of the green and then you're in a really difficult spot. The pin on the top could be several yards away from any trouble, but getting back to it is hard because it's more club and most players underclub.


Pat - I would be curious to know what impact a back pin position on the 1st at PV has on scores. There is no tier, but otherwise that hole has all the characteristics of what you describe. The difference in scoring there versus on holes that do have a tier (like say 6 at Piping Rock) would give you a good indication of how much of it is purely to do with the tier.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian,


The difference between Pat's example and a sucker pin IMO is that a sucker pin tries to entice the player to go for it. It looks inviting, but it really isn't, because if you miss by a fraction, you're in serious trouble. The upper back tier on the other hand I find normally entices the player to play safe to the front part of the green, because it looks troublesome. Probably more so than it actually is. You play safely to the front part of the green and then you're in a really difficult spot. The pin on the top could be several yards away from any trouble, but getting back to it is hard because it's more club and most players underclub.


Pat - I would be curious to know what impact a back pin position on the 1st at PV has on scores. There is no tier, but otherwise that hole has all the characteristics of what you describe. The difference in scoring there versus on holes that do have a tier (like say 6 at Piping Rock) would give you a good indication of how much of it is purely to do with the tier.

So many variables...


Does the back tier have a ton of room?
How many square ft is it?
How does it look from the FW?
Is it clear that the shot is daunting so the player plays safe or is there a mental invitation to challenge it with a shot that delivers the commensurate reward....?....exactly like a "sucker pin".


BTW, most (good) players don't hit the lure of the sucker pin and hit away SAFELY just as they might with a pin on the back tier.


I see no difference, but I also do see your points, Michael.
Cheers,
Ian

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian,

Which MacRaynorBanks Plateau or Double Plateau greens have you played ?

What's your handicap ?

[Will Lozier]

Why is this any different than a front pin position on a green that slants from back to front with perhaps a false front?
 
If I go long on an upper tier the challenge is exponentially harder,
and, if I go long with your example, I just have a long uphill putt, with no steep
slope to climb.
 
Hit a safe shot above the hole and you risk missing your putt and watching it roll off the green a la Crystal Downs.
 
Being faced with a downhill putt is a rather benign consequence compared to going long on a green with an upper back tier.
 
At worst you'll 3 putt in your example.
 
With an upper back tier and going long, you bring X and a 3 putt into the equation.

Pat,


If you go long of a front pin on a back to front sloping green, you'll likely NOT have a long uphill putt.


And, on a severely sloped green with a false front, as described, you may indeed 3-putt if you are putting at all on your next shot after missing even a very short downhill putt. Worse outcomes are definitely possible and more likely than you propose.


Cheers

[Ian Mackenzie]

Pat,


Since you already knew the answer, why then do you pose the question?


I gather you have never played Mackenzie's Midwest masterpiece and the #1 ranked course in the state of Michigan.
You would then understand, and not blindly try to refute, the point I made about front hole positions being equally adept at defending par. A player can land short and spin down the hill, or be long and have a treacherous putt that can indeed roll off the green. I encourage you to play some of these as it would add, not detract, from your knowledge. Tom Doak will confirm should he read this.


And, since any grounds crew member will only place a pin on a back shelf (or at the front perhaps once a week), it is a push, just like if he placed a pin directly over a bunker with a drop off on the right. I'm sure you would be wise enough to hit well away from that.


How many MacRaynors have I played? Did not think this thread was about them, but this week I played 36 on a Raynor. Is that OK? Five CBM rounds this summer, multiple Ross, etc. Played Piping Rock, NGLA, but that is irrelevant here. The more relevant question would be: how many courses have I played that influenced CBM/Raynor to do what they did...?...   The originals, not just the US template versions.


To answer another one of your queries, I would be obliged to give you 5 a side, assuming your 8.2 index (from NJ) is accurate and not padded....   Yikes!


Our 18th hole on our home course (Flynn) has a back shelf where the pin is set once a week. If the pin is at the front and you over-club (or miss-hit)and land on top shelf, you will be hard-pressed to hold the green on your first putt. When the pin is on the back, as it has been during club championship finals matches when I am up 1 going into 18 against a player who has played in multiple USGA and British amateur events, I would NEVER try to get to the back shelf and gladly 2-putted from 30-35' to win.


I dont care about MPCC in this thread as this is not about one course or one GCA per se. although I look forward to playing there later this fall.


Your thread is more appropriately bifurcated into two camps: those who can lag well uphill and up slopes and those who cannot. You apparently do not fear downhill sliders - I do. But, you appear to doubt your ability to lag up slopes for a 2-putt while I do not and based on my history, I'm confident in this strategy going forward. Over the green on a back shelf pin (especially if some deranged GCA put a bunker behind the green (Eww!!), that is death.


Cheers,
Ian

[Randy Thompson]

Peter,
Interesting your response and your conclusions. I am also an average golfer but would much prefer to play the 150 yard par three then one of 190 yards. My only objective on most par 3`s is to try to get on the green with my first shot and stay there. Like most golfers, my highest chance of hitting a decent shot is with my seven iron to a wedge, let say 70%. Put a five or six iron in my hands the possibility of proper execution with results drops to the 50% range. For a distance of 190 I would have to hit a 3 or 4 iron or a light five wood and my chances of executing a good shot drop down to 20%. Any shot of 190 yards par 3 or the second shot in to a par four with a back tier position I don`t even bother to think on how to get it close, it ain`t gonna happen and if it does, it will be pure luck!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian,
 
I want to thank you for your replies, they've reinforced and confirmed my premise.
 
You clearly stated that you deliberately play well short of the back upper tier.
 
This essentially eliminates birdie and brings a 3-putt into play as a strong probability, should you hit the green.
Should you miss the green, you're faced with a very difficult recovery, probably resulting in bogey or worse.
 
Hence, one can reasonably conclude that the introduction of back upper tiers is an effective method for defending par, even for a scratch golfer such as yourself.
 
Do you also lay up short on Biarritz's when the hole is cut on the back upper tier ?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian,
 
I want to thank you for your replies, they've reinforced and confirmed my premise.
 
You clearly stated that you deliberately play well short of the back upper tier.
 
This essentially eliminates birdie and brings a 3-putt into play as a strong probability, should you hit the green.
Should you miss the green, you're faced with a very difficult recovery, probably resulting in bogey or worse.
 
Hence, one can reasonably conclude that the introduction of back upper tiers is an effective method for defending par, even for a scratch golfer such as yourself.
 
Do you also lay up short on Biarritz's when the hole is cut on the back upper tier ?

Pat,


Hmm...you are correct, in the same vein as when there is a front pin on a sloping green with a false front. The two serve the same purpose. par is a good score for both back tier pins as well as for sucker pins. We agree....whew....


At Shoreacres # 6 on Wednesday, it was playing 217 with pin on back section of the Biaritz green. Struck crisp 4 iron to 19 feet and rolled in the birdie putt. As you well know, there is MUCH more room on the back of a Biaritz green as opposed to just an upper tier of a green.  green at shoreacres is probably 60+ yards deep. Same with #3 at CGC. Except the latter has fairway on the near side of the Biaritz trough.

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