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Will Lozier

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For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« on: August 24, 2016, 01:08:37 PM »
Just looking at some Google Earth images of Bandon and some land that was never used - specifically the area left of Pacific Dunes' 18th hole - and wondered to myself a few questions:


Did Doak consider ever consider that part of the property for a closer or any hole for that matter? It seems to be a sort of bowl between two dune ridges.


Was it fair play as far as what he was given to work with?


Does it really even lend itself to being a golf hole or am I totally disillusioned?


I thought that while almost every inch of the property that BD, PD, and OM sit on is so well utilized - such that there aren't many parcels of land that weren't used for golf like the one I mention above - I still wonder how many great holes were not built because of the final routing chosen? What amazing holes could have been built with other routings? On any course?


I would love to know!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 09:33:35 PM by Will Lozier »

Tom_Doak

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2016, 02:56:55 PM »
Will:


We didn't consider that valley up there seriously for a golf hole.  It's steep and deep and narrow, it was covered in gorse, and going up there would have left you an awkward distance from the clubhouse.  But I don't think there was a great hole up there, anyway.


When I first saw your title my mind went to particular holes on whole COURSES that never got built ... we've had some real doozies that got away, and in my next book [apart from The Confidential Guide] I intend to show some of those.


But, as for holes we shied away from on courses that DID get built, the one that jumps to mind was the original version of the 13th at Cape Kidnappers, which would have hung off the edge of the cliffs, from a tee further behind and below #12 green, to a small "hanging valley" 75 feet below.  We really were going to build it, but shied away at the end due to the difficulty of the walk, and the possibility of getting into some archaeological remains that would have shut the project down.  In hindsight, I'm sad we didn't get to build the hole, but at the same time I think the course is better [flows better] because we didn't, and the little hole we did build is pretty cool, too.

Phil McDade

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2016, 04:30:25 PM »
Non-architect answering here....


Those who have played the cult-ish Langford and Moreau Spring Valley GC in Wisconsin may think something similar. I always wondered why Langford strayed away from some of the wonderful terrain that makes up the current (interior) driving range at the course. It contains the eastern edge of what is a large bowl that also makes the 9th and 18th holes pretty cool holes. I could see using that portion of the land for a rollicking par 5 10th, and then stretching the current 11th (arguably the dullest of the generally very good set of five par 3s there) into a par 4 . You'd have a bit of a walk-back to the 12th tee, but maybe worth it to take advantage of some interesting terrain that now goes unused.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2016, 05:00:57 PM »
Will,

Interesting question.  From time to time, there are threads here about finding the only "perfect" routing on here, but never by architects, who know most routings are compromises of many demands.  Sometimes, as an old saying goes, you give up one great hole to get several decent ones."

One of my best courses, the Quarry at Giant's Ridge, nearly came out completely differently.  After the success of the first one, we studied three sites.  I actually recommended on across Wynne Lake, and it offered an out and back routing, with 9 holes one the water, and 9 just above those with filtered views through the pines.  Because the first course had such environmental scrutiny, the Owner elected to build in an old sand/iron ore quarry down the road, which did pass with environmentalists easily, and offered a chance to do a Pine Valley style course, so I was okay with that.

Even then, the final routing is nothing like what I initially proposed.  While the 18th runs along an old ore pit turned lake, my original plan was to have 1 run north of the clubhouse, with a scary and beautiful cape hole (water on slice side) opening up.  Another problem was 1 would run right into the sun.  Lastly, holes coming back would run through an old railroad yard and diesel servicing facility.  EPA rules place almost 99% cleanup requirements on sites like that, and almost unlimited legal liability on owners of such sites, so it was quickly ruled out, and the bulk of the course tightened up and went across the street where 16 holes now sit.

Besides 1, 2 would have also run the lake.  3 and 4 would have slid up an iron ore overburden pile, to the spectacular 5th, 200 feet above Wynne Lake with spectacular view, 6 and 7 would have run back and forth before 8 came down the hill, again, with a tee shot elevated by 200 feet.  Boy, was everyone against that!  Soils guys said any hole on top of that hill had to be 100 feet away from the edge, because it might slump.  That killed the view I wanted.  Highway department worried that the elevated tee shot on 8 might hit the road (intentionally or not) which was legit.  And then, the finale was 9 running through the rail yard, which required clean up.

Course turned out fine anyway, and the compactness is part of its charm.  But, I thought we had a chance at nearly 19 spectacular holes by spreading it out.  Another old saying in design is to not fall in love with any hole too much, because you might not end up getting it in the final plan.  I think the Quarry shows there is almost always a way around such disappointment, and that necessity is the Mother of invention.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2016, 08:56:45 PM »
I thought at least one architect would've answered: "I don't know. If it was a truly great hole and I didn't build it, I must've flat out missed *seeing* it there in the first place".

But I guess that kind of thinking -- the road *not* taken -- is, for all of us, just too painful...
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 09:57:36 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jim Nugent

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2016, 09:12:31 PM »

But, as for holes we shied away from on courses that DID get built, the one that jumps to mind was the original version of the 13th at Cape Kidnappers, which would have hung off the edge of the cliffs, from a tee further behind and below #12 green, to a small "hanging valley" 75 feet below.  We really were going to build it, but shied away at the end due to the difficulty of the walk, and the possibility of getting into some archaeological remains that would have shut the project down.  In hindsight, I'm sad we didn't get to build the hole, but at the same time I think the course is better [flows better] because we didn't, and the little hole we did build is pretty cool, too.

I remember photos of a hole at a 'second' course at CK you wanted to build, but IIRC required too much money (for bridges?).  That hole looked spectacular.   

Tim_Weiman

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2016, 10:07:37 PM »
Will,


Another non architect response.


There is really only one golf course that I had a lot of exposure to prior to completion: Sand Ridge, near Cleveland, Ohio. The site is about 360 acres with about 100-120 acres of wetlands. I never got to see them all, but I was told by the project manager - Dusty Murdock, ex IMG - that in total about 25 routings were done, including two or three that appeared to have several interesting holes, but the routings were rejected for environmental reasons.


So, for me the question became: were there any much better holes that would have fit into the final, environmental approved, routing plan?


Maybe. One possibility would have used half of a par four (#7), but created more of a dogleg and a different green site. However, most likely it would have required building another bridge over wetlands to get golfers back to the 8th tee and/or green, something the project wanted to minimize.


I'm no architect, but as Jeff Brauer suggested, I suspect there are a lot of compromises made in routing plans and possibly some really cool holes left out unfortunately.
Tim Weiman

Doug Wright

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2016, 12:38:43 PM »
I haven't read this thread yet but all I have to say is:  what a great question!

Has this ever been asked before?  I don't remember it ...

My thought exactly Dave--I don't think it has! Hope the architects answer it...
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Will Lozier

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2016, 03:24:49 PM »

But, as for holes we shied away from on courses that DID get built, the one that jumps to mind was the original version of the 13th at Cape Kidnappers, which would have hung off the edge of the cliffs, from a tee further behind and below #12 green, to a small "hanging valley" 75 feet below.  We really were going to build it, but shied away at the end due to the difficulty of the walk, and the possibility of getting into some archaeological remains that would have shut the project down.  In hindsight, I'm sad we didn't get to build the hole, but at the same time I think the course is better [flows better] because we didn't, and the little hole we did build is pretty cool, too.


Tom,


I think I can see the areas you are talking about for the tees and green and it looks like you could easily fall into the abyss!! Was safety a concern what that version was being considered? There must have been a number of places on that property where it was.


Two follow up questions:


1) What was the best hole you didn't build at Bandon that you did seriously consider based on other routings?


2) Did you have the tee shot of PD's 9th in mind for Old Mac's 3rd and, if so, have you ever had the dilemma of not building a hole too similar to another on the same property despite what the land offered?


Cheers

Tom_Doak

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2016, 03:58:21 PM »

Two follow up questions:

1) What was the best hole you didn't build at Bandon that you did seriously consider based on other routings?


2) Did you have the tee shot of PD's 9th in mind for Old Mac's 3rd and, if so, have you ever had the dilemma of not building a hole too similar to another on the same property despite what the land offered?



1.  There were lots of other holes considered briefly for Pacific Dunes -- such as, originally, #2 was going to be a long par-3 to the landing area on top of the fairway, but then we found the green site for #7 and it made more sense to stretch out #2 to a longer hole. 
     At Old Macdonald, my original "Alps" hole would have come up #14 fairway but then over the top of the ridge and the big blowout off the right of #3 tee ... but eventually we decided it was unsafe to have #3 plus the returning hole in such a small area, plus it would have been hard to play north from there to get the length we needed for #17.


2.  I did realize the tee shot on #3 Old Macdonald was similar to #9 Pacific Dunes, but since both are similar to Macdonald's Sahara hole, I figured that was okay.  We almost did not build a Redan hole for #17 at Pacific -- we tried a couple of versions of other things in that spot, but nothing else seemed to work out.  So then, when we had to build ANOTHER Redan for Old Macdonald, I wanted to be sure it was different -- mostly by orienting it downwind, which had a lot of implications for how we shaped the green and the surrounding bunkers.  Some say the Redan on Old Mac is disappointing, and it's probably because I didn't want to make it just like the one at Pacific Dunes, which I think is one of the best in the world in the winter months when it plays downwind.

paul cowley

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2016, 08:47:20 AM »
Good question...in the physical world, on sites I've explored or routed, I've probably forgotten more than I can remember.


In the conceptual world I have always wanted to build the backwards/reverse par 4...or the 180 degree dogleg par 4. This would occur where a green was positioned first behind a penal hazard (water, canyon etc), and a receptive fairway would be beyond the green. The green itself would be non receptive from a tee shot (canted backwards).


The strategy would be to play beyond the green and then play back on one's second shot.


A big advantage is that you play over a portion of the same land twice...thereby adding additional course yardage for tight sites, IE tee: drive to a 300 yd fairway and back 100 yds to the green...300+100 yds = 400 yard hole.


It's a fun hole in my mind but I doubt I'll have many/any takers


BTW this hole only works on par 4"s  :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom_Doak

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2016, 12:31:05 PM »
Paul:


How would you build a green that was so severe it made no sense to go at it from one side, but then it was a relatively easy play from the other side?  Seems difficult to me.


And if it would work as a par-4, why not as a par-5?

paul cowley

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2016, 03:48:43 PM »
Tom - let's assume that the layout consists of a smallish green that is across a pond,175 yds way, that juts out into the pond. It also has a 3%(or less) reverse slope to the rear that continues out beyond to a wide landing with strategic bunkers that ends at about 300+yds. Misses on either side or short of the green would be in the water. The sensible/safer tee shot would be a 3 wood/hybrid over the green to the landing area, and then wedge back to a now receptive green. That's the concept/strategy skeleton lacking only an imaginative dressing. Or it could be a blind, over a hill Dell type par 4 that goes down a slope past the green, and then one would then have to play backwards to a shelved in green on the previous shots down slope.


It would be tough as a par 5 with play considerations, and it wouldn't work as a par 3 for obvious reasons.


Silly stuff, but fun for me to think about.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 07:03:08 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom_Doak

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2016, 07:05:09 PM »

It would be tough as a par 5 with play considerations


True, but turn your pond into a creek just in front of the broad side of the green.  Now, the guy who can get across in two and chip back has an advantage, but the closer the short hitter can get to the creek with his second, the better chance he has of holding the green with his third.

Garland Bayley

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2016, 02:37:34 AM »
When I saw the thread title, I thought of the list Tom once posted of holes he would like to build replicas of. The list includes Royal North Devon #9, which he has verified not having built a replica of.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jon Wiggett

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2016, 08:02:01 AM »
Paul:


How would you build a green that was so severe it made no sense to go at it from one side, but then it was a relatively easy play from the other side?  Seems difficult to me.


And if it would work as a par-4, why not as a par-5?


Remove the kick plate on the right and the original Redan fits the bill. I nearly always play to finish through the back and then try to chip and putt for par. Playing as it once did as a short par 4 the kick plate becomes more relevant though.


Jon

Forrest Richardson

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2016, 12:42:04 PM »
Someone posted recently: Can't anyone post something interesting?? I like this thread because it stimulates thought, and good discussion. One of the ideas I've been pushing at our ASGCA meetings is to have a time slot dedicated to this very idea: What designs did not make the cut, but perhaps would have amounted to terrific holes and strategy...

Back in 2002 we got a commission to create a new public course in Henderson, Nevada, on an old landfill. It was a tough project for many reasons...soils, landfill, neighbors, ground water, lack of water!, and more. In the end, it never materialized. And, to de-boost my energy, the City eventually held a cattle call and Robert Von Hagge was ultimately selected to do the final design. He, also, did not get to see anything built.

This was my featured hole, a severe uphill trek (100+feet as I recall) that was the length of an ordinary par-4 at about 380-yards, but played as a true par-5 due to the severity of the uphill grade. I walked (hiked!) it many times and became infatuated with the steep terrain. How clever (I thought) to get all the uphill out of the way in one unusual hole — with nearly all of the rest of the routing being downgrade. There was a hilltop peak directly in line with the left tee shot, and from here you could not see the green. The only way to get a glimpse of the green would be to play right, further.





Have always liked it. Maybe some day I will get to go back as the land is still there!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 12:46:08 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom_Doak

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2016, 04:21:32 PM »
Forrest:


I remember the RFP for that job.  I played around with a routing for it, but ultimately decided not to submit a proposal for it.  Steep, indeed.


I like your hole conceptually, but I can't see why very many people would play to the left off the tee, when the carry to the right doesn't seem too daunting.  Oddly, it looks much harder for the 12-handicapper on the third tee up, than for the scratch guy from the back.

Forrest Richardson

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2016, 04:32:00 PM »
I really cannot recall all the details about the tees. One thing I do recall was that each one forward meant about 15-feet higher elevation! So, that alone, makes the back-back tees much more threatening.

What I can recall was that there was a delightful canyon below these tees and the ridges beyond that were where we planned the fairway. Somewhere along the line I managed to create a ratio of hitting distance which was something like 60% of normal based on the up-up-up nature of the terrain.

This was admittedly back in my "more tees are better" days, and as you can see, they are all beautiful little ovals   ::)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 04:34:11 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

cary lichtenstein

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Re: For Architects: What's the greatest hole you never built?
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2016, 05:44:20 PM »
Great thread
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

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