A day of architectural sadness

[Jeff_Lewis]

Friday.
Spent most of the day at Bethpage Black.  A course that Tillie sort of designed and Rees sort of ruined.  Why are the bunkers like that?  Why, why, why are they so far from the fairways in so many spots?  Why are the greens so flat?


I remember playing the course just before the USGA and Rees "saved" it.  Brings a tear to the eye.  One of the worst restorations in history.  Let's re-restore the Black with Gil or Doak before its too late and we think that what we are seeing today IS the Black.


Definitely on my list of one of the well-intentioned destructive acts of the Evil Empire.




And then we headed over to Gil Hanse's Tallgrass to play a few holes.  It had been long long time since I played there right after the opening.  What wonderful architecture on a flat piece of land.   It doesn't look like a place that is likely to be around for too long so I suggest that anybody local to the NY area get over there.   

[RJ_Daley]

And yet wasn't it Ricky Fowler with Sir Nick agreeing that it may be the best test of golf they play all year.... 

[Jeff_Lewis]

I would say it was a Doak 8.5 before the restoration and is a 7 7.5 now.   It just could have been a 9 or a 10.

[Joe Bausch]

How many greens did Rees Jones 'tweak'?

[Ronald Montesano]

Here's the rub: we wouldn't be having this thread discussion if David Fay, USGA, and Rees hadn't cauldroned their witches' brew to return BPB to the public eye. The thread conversation we would be having would be akin to Has anyone played that Tillinghast muni? or, What a shame that BPB is in such sh!t shape.


I don't know what the greens were like before they had their Pilates adjustment, but any additional undulations, slopes, etc., would have rendered them unfit for tour speeds (which is not germane to the intent of many on GCA) and ultimately, they would have been squashed.


Who knows how challenging it would be to get something done in the NYS state park system these days? Unless the pros were to complain about the greens (lord knows the daily public is not) it would not get a mention in an article.

[Ronald Montesano]

And here's why this isn't a day of architectural sadness: they are talking about golf course architecture on television and streamed feeds. When did they ever discuss architecture before? It's a talking point and we should be happy that there is a conversation. Now, when you golf with your non-GCA buds, my guess is that any of them that watched some bit from BPB will say, Hey, isn't that one of those guys you're always on about?


And you can smile and say, Yes, my friend, Yes indeed.

[Ian Andrew]

It`s a grassing line problem, it was so much wider before, far more in scale.

The angles, options and most of the bunkering has all been grassed out of existence.
It would be my pick for the worst grassing lines on a Top 100 course.

[Mark Fedeli]

And here's why this isn't a day of architectural sadness: they are talking about golf course architecture on television and streamed feeds. When did they ever discuss architecture before? It's a talking point and we should be happy that there is a conversation. Now, when you golf with your non-GCA buds, my guess is that any of them that watched some bit from BPB will say, Hey, isn't that one of those guys you're always on about?


And you can smile and say, Yes, my friend, Yes indeed.

That's true, Ron. But it's also true that the announcers are mainly on about how difficult it is, and while the forced carries are mentioned, the bigger factors that the audience will hear about is length, of course, but also the narrow fairways and deep rough. They will assume those things are what makes the course great, and that's the reason why Bethpage keeps the same narrow mowing lines for non-tournament play. The tourists want to get beat up when they come, and it saddens me that they won't realize that a whole like #15 would beat them up in a much more fun and rewarding way if there were no rough at all.


Which leads to a question I often wonder about when it comes to deep bunkers hidden in the rough: how do you convince someone that the fairway lines should be brought to the edge of those bunkers, when they think that the bunkers are there to be a stiffer penalty than the rough for shots that are extra-off line? After all, we accept graduated roughs; are they wrong to think the bunkers are a similar graduated penalty?

[Rob Marshall]

The place was a run down embarrassment before the renovation. The greens aren't sreansong blue but from what I remember from the last time I played it they were not what I would consider flat.

[Stephen Northrup]

Ian's point about grassing lines is spot on. Is there anywhere on the course where the bunkers and short grass are connected such that an offline shot might roll into a bunker? I'm not on the grounds this week, but from memory #12 seems like a perfect example both in the fairway and near the green.


What's the reasoning behind it? Is it a muni course concession to limited funding? Is is less expensive to maintain less fairway? Or is it perhaps it's to keep regular players out of the bunkers to save money on maintaining them?

[MCirba]

I was fortunate to play The Black long ago before the Reestoration, and it had a rough-hewn scruffiness that was a terrific complement to the toughness of the course and the rigor of the walk.

I've only seen it from pictures and on television but that hasn't excited me enough to go back, so I'm not sure what that says exactly except 18 looks...can't decided if the right word is cluttered, clustered, or both.   

I don't think Rees touched the greens in his initial pass, but I may be wrong there.

[K Rafkin]

I was fortunate to play The Black long ago before the Reestoration, and it had a rough-hewn scruffiness that was a terrific complement to the toughness of the course and the rigor of the walk.

I've only seen it from pictures and on television but that hasn't excited me enough to go back, so I'm not sure what that says exactly except 18 looks...can't decided if the right word is cluttered, clustered, or both.   

I don't think Rees touched the greens in his initial pass, but I may be wrong there.

Someone can chime in if I'm wrong, but I think you're partially correct about the former Open Dr. not fiddling with the greens.  I do however think that prior to the Rees renovation several of the greens had shrunken most likely due to maintenance costs.  I think instead of restoring the greens original sizes, Rees just pulled in the bunkers effectively permanently shrinking the sizes of the greens.  If this is true It explains why several greens just look a little too small for such a large property.

[Matthew Essig]

Faldo yesterday brought up how he was walking the course and was severely disappointed that the rough line wasn't pushed back to the bunkering. Then I believe it was Baker-Finch, maybe McCord, who agreed that the bunkers, both beautiful and punishing, weren't more in play.

[Ian Andrew]

He re-built #15 and altered a portion of the 14th for a new pin.
Rest I don't know.

[Rob Marshall]

Amazing putt Jason Day just made on the"flat" 15th green..........

[Mark Bourgeois]

I liked it a lot better before the renovations were inflicted on it.

They make it sound like it was some sort of decrepit disaster. It wasn't in great shape but more to the point it was certainly far below Tour flogger standards.

With no carts allowed it was decent enough before. Mainly the greens needed TLC.

[jeffwarne]

It`s a grassing line problem, it was so much wider before, far more in scale.

The angles, options and most of the bunkering has all been grassed out of existence.
It would be my pick for the worst grassing lines on a Top 100 course.

bingo
The challenge used to be the course,hazards and the architecture(and the condition)


Now it's simply the setup


boring

[Mike Schott]

I liked it a lot better before the renovations were inflicted on it.

They make it sound like it was some sort of decrepit disaster. It wasn't in great shape but more to the point it was certainly far below Tour flogger standards.

With no carts allowed it was decent enough before. Mainly the greens needed TLC.

Pre-restoration the course was in very rough shape, at least as far as the turf goes. I played it in about 1995 and the bones were terrific, great bunkers and tough approach shots. But the turf was a mess. There was as much grass as there was weeds. Even so, it was memorable and epic. I'm a little sad to see how it is now at least on TV for tournaments. 18 is a joke.

[Rob Marshall]

Could someone please explain to me what is so bad about the 18th hole?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

@ Rob


What is so bad about 18?


Prior thread:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39641

[Terry Lavin]

It`s a grassing line problem, it was so much wider before, far more in scale.

The angles, options and most of the bunkering has all been grassed out of existence.
It would be my pick for the worst grassing lines on a Top 100 course.

bingo
The challenge used to be the course,hazards and the architecture(and the condition)


Now it's simply the setup


boring

Ding ding ding.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Prior link doesn't work . Try this:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39641.msg831952.html#msg831952

[Matthew Essig]

It`s a grassing line problem, it was so much wider before, far more in scale.

The angles, options and most of the bunkering has all been grassed out of existence.
It would be my pick for the worst grassing lines on a Top 100 course.

bingo
The challenge used to be the course,hazards and the architecture(and the condition)


Now it's simply the setup


boring

Ding ding ding.

+1 ding.

[Adam_Messix]

The Bethpage Black that I remember pre USGA was scruffy, tough, and cool.  The greens with the exception of 11 and 15 were a pretty dull affair...  and 15 has since been softened quote a bit by Rees.