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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
I just saw a photo on FB of a young Bob Cupp, Jim Lipe and Jack Nicklaus on a construction site 30 years ago and it just hit me that not many of the young people in the business today have ever had a chance to do that on a constant daily basis for such a long period of time.  Some of us were fortunate to be born when such was available.  Nothing we did..just fate. 

A significant part of having a successful golf course design portfolio is being born at the right time.  If you haven’t read the book, Outliers, then you should.  It makes you aware of a few things that made outliers which we normally would not consider.  Anyway, two things in the book stand out.  One,  10,000 hours are usually needed to become an expert in something and two, being born when there is a demand for your expertise.  So, you have the chicken and the egg thing going on.  If there is no market then there is no demand allowing for 10,000 hours of expertise.  That’s where we are today in golf design.  Routing and full construction are rare and so not much expertise is being passed to many. 

Before the attacks begin….I’m not condemning or slamming any renovation expert.  I’m making an observation of this site.    This site hypes so much stuff as golf design when it is just replication.  So many people involved in renovation have never designed and built new golf courses.  That’s not a slap at them but just a fact of the times.  However, it does tell us that when the next wave of new projects come along there will be few that have the knowledge and experience of routing and building a course from the bushes.  It’s a totally different gig than copying photos of old bunkers or having seances to determine how a green should lay. 

And so with all of the above being said…we don’t know much about the talent out there other than green’s construction and bunker work.  And much of that is all relevant to who is shaping the project. 

So, is it  like the long drive champs where only a few can actually play the game... ;D ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2016, 05:23:44 PM »
Mike:


I'll agree with you that there a lot of young guys who have come through the ranks recently who can shape, but nobody really knows which of them will be really good at design.  I've got my hunches on a few of them, based on giving them a bit of rope to play with when building new courses, but you still really don't know how good you are at routing a course until you have built a couple of them.


I remember being so relieved when we built High Pointe and confirming to myself that I had the skill to be good at it all -- I was 27 and had been working towards it for nine years.  I was really hoping I didn't stink!  And by most standards, not counting Tour pros who sign up a job without any experience and guys who finance their own projects, that was a pretty fast pace to get my first job on my own.  I don't know how many more years I could have waited.


None of the ones I've coached look like long drive champions, though ... not enough swing speed or muscle.  So maybe they're built for something better.

Peter Pallotta

Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2016, 05:24:53 PM »
If you're right, Mike, it will be those who have worked away in anonymity at one of the big signature firms, grumbling under their breaths about "the Old Man", worrying that they weren't keeping up with changing tastes, complaining that the industry was passing them by, wishing they had final say on the routing, and dreaming about the day when the could actually design their own courses just the way they wanted to, who might be the very ones who get that very chance... and who manage to deliver!

Life is strange, isn't it? No road so straight that it doesn't have a turn in it someplace.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 05:35:52 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2016, 05:36:03 PM »
Mike,

Hasn't it always been cyclical and feast and famine?  I entered in 1977, and the 1974 oil crisis, Watergate and a few other things killed the boom that had been present in golf.  When I was with Killian and Nugent for 7 years, we probably only finished 5 new courses in that era (Kemper, Lake Arrowhead in WI, Forest Preserve National (George Dunne, now?) Mission Dorado and Charles Ditto in TX, plus 2 nine hole tracts, so in NGF parlance, it was 6 new course equivalent courses in 7 years. 

The rest was renovations, often one or two greens a year until the club was complete, or they got tired of being under construction and hired a signature architect to blow it all up.  It was very typical (and still is) for architects to do 50-90% of their work in the renovation field, so what has changed?  Yeah, some guys don't remember it, but this is NORMAL for the golf design biz, not the 1990's, with this being some anomaly.

And, optimist that I am, I note that there had to be a worse situation after WWII, and somehow a new generation of archies came in and got the job done, even if many here now decry the era.  It is an opportunity for someone to take the ball and run with it in some new direction, which is always exciting.

I hear most in the biz saying they are extremely busy right now, although a few lag behind.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2016, 05:48:27 PM »
If you're right, Mike, it will be those who have worked away in anonymity at one of the big signature firms, grumbling under their breaths about "the Old Man", worrying that they weren't keeping up with changing tastes, complaining that the industry was passing them by, wishing they had final say on the routing, and dreaming about the day when the could actually design their own courses just the way they wanted to, who might be the very ones who get that very chance... and who manage to deliver!

Life is strange, isn't it? No road so straight that it doesn't have a turn in it someplace.

Peter,

Probably another topic to itself!  I recently told the story that I had read the HHW article in Golf Digest, (which sounded amazingly like a gca.com post from recently) about mass production, forgetting the value of Ross and his chipping areas, etc.  I proposed chocolate drops and grass bunkers on a course, was rejected by KN, and it sort of was the final straw in me going out on my own, not that I wasn't going to anyway.  In another instance, I designed a "non-traditional" Killian and Nugent green, knowing I was leaving soon anyway, (Yay, free shot at trying something on someone else's reputation!).  Instead of traditional backing mounds, I place one back further and the horizon lines crossed quite attractively.  Killian liked it, client liked it, I was pretty smitten with my creation, at least on the tee.  When Ken got up there, and saw where the mound was, he said "we don't do that" even though he liked it.

At that point, I vowed I would never be the 60 year old architect who churned out the same style no matter what.

More recently, got a call from a sales guy who had been an architect.  He was let go, and lamenting that they knew that sharper edges were in style, but firm owner just couldn't bring himself to do it, and biz was declining.

As to routing itself, every firm has those free sales routings, new courses designed but never built, etc.  We all get some routing training, although the ultimate test is if they get built and do well.  There are some things you just don't know will work until you actually build them, or try to.  But, in nearly every firm, you can tell which young guys have a knack for it.  I used to give my new guys 6 months, and in that time, I gave them some shots at routing to gauge them.  I could tell pretty quickly if they understood it.

Actually, having a few of my guys working on a few routings right now.  Some typical problems - nice pattern, sometimes they waste way too much land (KN got on me for that as well, many years ago), others stick too close to rules, etc.  In the end, being good or great at routing is about trying lots of ideas fast.  I never let my guys do first routings that took over an hour or so. I preferred they try 3 different clubhouse locations, theories, start at different points on the land, etc.  Do them quick to see what has potential.  Some guys lay out one hole like its 16 at Cypress or something, and sit back and admire it for hours, nearly paralyzed at what to do next to save that favorite hole.  (Sorry, lapping back to that other thread)

Just some random routing thoughts.  I have been lucky here in the last few weeks, having a chance to do more routing than in a good few years!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCowan

Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2016, 05:53:45 PM »
Happy Birthday  ;D

Peter Pallotta

Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2016, 06:08:40 PM »
Jeff - thanks, very interesting post. I'm happy that you're in a busy and productive time; all the best with that. P.S. - I'd very likely be that guy staring at my own "16th at Cypress" for 4 hours!  :)

Peter

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2016, 07:58:06 PM »
If you're right, Mike, it will be those who have worked away in anonymity at one of the big signature firms, grumbling under their breaths about "the Old Man", worrying that they weren't keeping up with changing tastes, complaining that the industry was passing them by, wishing they had final say on the routing, and dreaming about the day when the could actually design their own courses just the way they wanted to, who might be the very ones who get that very chance... and who manage to deliver!

Life is strange, isn't it? No road so straight that it doesn't have a turn in it someplace.

Peter,
I don't think it will be those guys.  Many were let go a few years back and realized quickly they had a jaded view since most had never had to sell and all they had ever seen were clients coming to them for work.  The ones that are still there know that when the top guy retires it will all go to son's or family no matter how much talent he has.  They can't say that but they know.  The other thing I see is the guys tied to the big names, in most cases, have been too dependent on the builders.  They could request only specified builders for their jobs and they would come on sites and leave many of the problems up to the builders.  The builders often had the upper hand.  They had a gravy train with the sigs for years.

The other thing is JB mentions it has always been feat or famine.  I agree but now we have so many more people thinking they can stay in the business for the same amount of work or maybe less.  And when some of these tell you they have more work it is often in relation to what they have had for the last few years.  And then on top of that, many are not making the kind of money one would expect.  The period after the war was a period that I don't think we will see again.  So many of the guys doing work then were a different breed from the young guys you see now.  A concentrated effort was made to complicate the business and there just wasn't the talent that is out there today.  As TD says there are some out there that will be the ones but almost to the person they will be guys who learned in the field and can't be BS'ed by a builder. 

I guess another way to say it is there are many architects who can also do their interior decorating on a building.  It's rare you see an interior decorator who can design and build the structure itself. 

Oh well....just trying to stir shit...I was becoming bored with so many other threads....

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2016, 08:43:27 PM »
I’m making an observation of this site.    This site hypes so much stuff as golf design when it is just replication.  So many people involved in renovation have never designed and built new golf courses.  That’s not a slap at them but just a fact of the times.  However, it does tell us that when the next wave of new projects come along there will be few that have the knowledge and experience of routing and building a course from the bushes.  It’s a totally different gig than copying photos of old bunkers or having seances to determine how a green should lay. 



Mike


This site is also focused on "Top 100" style golf courses. How many modern Top 100 style courses are profitable?


If I was building a "golf facility" today and was focused on profitability- I would probably focus on the architect that could figure out traffic flow into my Topgolf facility first and hairy bunkers on the 7 hole course we could figure out later :)


Now I know that you cover the gamut of golf in terms of owner/operator/architect. If you could not hire yourself as architect- who would YOU hire? :)


Don't worry- Tom knows you are NOT paying his design fee!!
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2016, 09:29:00 PM »
Michael,

I would imagine most Top 100's are profitable. 
I wasn't saying I didn't like many of the present day renovations.  I was just saying there are so many that are the same.  The squiggly edged bunker is about like the shag carpet rage.  I'm not saying it's not pretty but it is the fad.  It's not practical for most places and will just cost to replace soon.  And it does not necessarily show talent IMHO. 

As for covering the gamut....my main business is still design/build but during the down times I was able to find a deal here and there.  I don't deal with it on a daily basis.  I think many have done the same over the years. 

It does me no good to answer your question with a name.  But I would say I would hire one of a few young guys who are field guys and can build as well as design.  And it would be one that had worked in firm soils at some point.  It could be one of TD's or one of mine but then you might consider mine me....JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2016, 09:57:28 AM »
This site hypes so much stuff as golf design when it is just replication.  So many people involved in renovation have never designed and built new golf courses.  That’s not a slap at them but just a fact of the times.  However, it does tell us that when the next wave of new projects come along there will be few that have the knowledge and experience of routing and building a course from the bushes.  It’s a totally different gig than copying photos of old bunkers or having seances to determine how a green should lay.
Mike--


Aren't you discounting/minimizing the positive effect that renovation and restoration is having on the public's experience of golf?


I've been catching up on episodes of the Netflix show "Chef's Table" recently, each of which amounts to a brief documentary profile of a famous high-end chef. It's incredibly cool to watch Grant Achatz subvert conventions of dining and the "traditional" restaurant experience (making a balloon out of sugar, using liquid nitrogen, etc.), but he's catering to a very wealthy crowd who, even though many of them could afford it, are not going to go to his establishment every time they go out to eat. At the end of the day, creating new stuff for the sake of newness is only going to stimulate a small group, leaving the vast majority unenlightened by the talent of great chefs.


Contrast that to the recent restoration/renovation movements in golf. You may not think as much of guys whose main on-the-ground work has amounted to building Donald Ross greens and bunkers, but a lot of those "replication" efforts are transforming municipal/public courses like those in Wilmington (Ross), Ft. Myers (Ross), Savannah (Ross) and Hartford (half-Emmet, half-a different Ross), which are exposing players to better architecture than they'd been able to access before. You bemoaning the fact that a lot of these efforts look similar speaks to how much more you've been able to travel and see than 99% of golfers.


Why would the everyday customer at Wilmington Municipal care that the style employed at Savannah Municipal looks similar? We need more courses taking on that sort of look and heightened architectural intrigue, not fewer.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2016, 10:48:58 AM »
You may not think as much of guys whose main on-the-ground work has amounted to building Donald Ross greens and bunkers, but a lot of those "replication" efforts are transforming municipal/public courses like those in Wilmington (Ross), Ft. Myers (Ross), Savannah (Ross) and Hartford (half-Emmet, half-a different Ross), which are exposing players to better architecture than they'd been able to access before. You bemoaning the fact that a lot of these efforts look similar speaks to how much more you've been able to travel and see than 99% of golfers.


Why would the everyday customer at Wilmington Municipal care that the style employed at Savannah Municipal looks similar? We need more courses taking on that sort of look and heightened architectural intrigue, not fewer.

Tim,
with as much respect as I can muster...the above bullshit is what continues to piss me off about this site.  Where did I say anything about how much respect I had for guys who build bunkers and greens.  No where did I say that.  I made a statement that the times were where there is not enough work for young guys to be gaining experience routing and building new projects from scratch.  Those comments above have nothing to do with my point.  I'm not bemoaning anything about things being similar even though I would expect such if one was trying to replicate the same guy's work.  Let me ask you the question this way....You have a house that is 20 years old and it needs to be renovated.  You can call the original builder who is still in the business and have him come in and paint the house, rework the kitchen and put in new flooring.  Or you can find a guy who has done nothing but remodeling who can come in and do the same things.  He may be excellent and probably is if he has been in business long.  BUT do you know if he can build the house from scratch?  No...it's two different things. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2016, 11:14:26 AM »
You may not think as much of guys whose main on-the-ground work has amounted to building Donald Ross greens and bunkers, but a lot of those "replication" efforts are transforming municipal/public courses like those in Wilmington (Ross), Ft. Myers (Ross), Savannah (Ross) and Hartford (half-Emmet, half-a different Ross), which are exposing players to better architecture than they'd been able to access before. You bemoaning the fact that a lot of these efforts look similar speaks to how much more you've been able to travel and see than 99% of golfers.


Why would the everyday customer at Wilmington Municipal care that the style employed at Savannah Municipal looks similar? We need more courses taking on that sort of look and heightened architectural intrigue, not fewer.

Tim,
with as much respect as I can muster...the above bullshit is what continues to piss me off about this site.  Where did I say anything about how much respect I had for guys who build bunkers and greens.  No where did I say that.  I made a statement that the times were where there is not enough work for young guys to be gaining experience routing and building new projects from scratch.  Those comments above have nothing to do with my point.  I'm not bemoaning anything about things being similar even though I would expect such if one was trying to replicate the same guy's work.  Let me ask you the question this way....You have a house that is 20 years old and it needs to be renovated.  You can call the original builder who is still in the business and have him come in and paint the house, rework the kitchen and put in new flooring.  Or you can find a guy who has done nothing but remodeling who can come in and do the same things.  He may be excellent and probably is if he has been in business long.  BUT do you know if he can build the house from scratch?  No...it's two different things.


Okay, so the image you conjured of renovation architects "holding seances to determine how a green should lay" was not snarky in the least? Unless there's some New Age streak among the members of that field, and they really do hold seances to contact Donald Ross from beyond the grave to ask him if they're representing his intentions correctly, I'd be a little miffed to see my work reduced to witchcraft by you if I were one of the people whose work you're referring to.


By referring to the work that this site allegedly hypes as "just replication," your use of the word "just" minimizes the "replication" part. So, yeah, you seem to be minimizing it with your word choice. If you truly didn't mean to, fine, my bad, I was just reading and interpreting your words.


Perhaps the most salient point is this: in an era where new golf course construction has slowed to a trickle and looks like it's not going to pick up anytime soon, does it matter to so much that a two-specialty system - a) those who are good at routing golf courses, and b) those who specialize in restoring classic architects' work and bringing classic sensibilities to existing courses - is developing?


It seems the likes of Tom Doak and Gil Hanse and Coore & Crenshaw, as well as the Nicklauses and Fazios and Dyes and Joneses, will get the highest-profile 100%-new work as long as they want it, based on their entrenched reputations. Another group of architects, like yourself and Jeff Brauer and Lester George others, I hope, will also continue to be able to showcase their talent in building new courses here and there. But the vast majority of those projects will, at least in the U.S., probably be high-end private and resort projects, which will be great to play and a lot of fun to bandy about on this site, but won't have nearly as much impact on the greatest majority of everyday golfers as the renovations of existing courses. That seems to be where a lot of the work is going to come from, so if we can have a dynamite class of dedicated students of classic GCA to tackle those projects, that's great. Right?
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2016, 08:28:07 PM »
Tim,
You really don't get my point do you?  Seance is a good word for how so much of this renovation stuff has been marketed.  My Hispanic guys and others working for others can build any bunker you give them a photo of but they can't find a golf course in the bushes.  Now if anyone on this site had those guys and told them what they wanted they could do it and then this site would exclaim how great ABC archie was at ABC reno site.  And so it goes right back to the title of my thread....

All I'm saying is building a new course from the bushes and working on an existing course are not the same.  That's not a slam at anyone doing either.  But it is a certainty that we have no idea how good some of the renovation guys are if they have never built their own courses.  That's nobody's fault but the economy and the growth of the game.
 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2016, 08:32:50 PM »
Mike,

Do the guys that are really good at renovation need to be good at anything else? Seems to me there's a healthy market there, and if they're qualified and capable, what's the beef if they keep on doing renovations?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2016, 08:52:02 PM »
Mike,

Do the guys that are really good at renovation need to be good at anything else? Seems to me there's a healthy market there, and if they're qualified and capable, what's the beef if they keep on doing renovations?

Joe,
I have ZERO beef here and it could be all they need to do is renovation BUT all I'm saying is if there is no market to give practicing architects routing experience then there will not be a continuation of what has been learned over the last 25 years.  They are not learning it with renovations. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2016, 05:15:20 PM »
Mike, I always wonder how guys become crane operators.  You have training, you probably study under a crane operator, watch how he works and try to pick up his tricks, but it's too expensive to put training wheels on and practice and get a feel for the machine.  One day you actually have to get in the crane and get shit done.  That machine needs to maximize productivity for the project to get completed on time and on budget. 


I imagine becoming a golf architect is sort of the same.  You can learn from the ground up, study under the best guys, and watch how they handle certain situations and soak everything in, but eventually anyone that gets their first job designing is getting thrown into the fire.  Would you agree?

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2016, 09:01:14 PM »

I imagine becoming a golf architect is sort of the same.  You can learn from the ground up, study under the best guys, and watch how they handle certain situations and soak everything in, but eventually anyone that gets their first job designing is getting thrown into the fire.  Would you agree?

Different Mike- but I do disagree.

Crane operators in Manhattan- where I live- have killed people.To my knowledge- no gca has ever killed a person. That is ONE of the reasons why you need a license to run a crane.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2016, 09:30:10 PM »

I imagine becoming a golf architect is sort of the same.  You can learn from the ground up, study under the best guys, and watch how they handle certain situations and soak everything in, but eventually anyone that gets their first job designing is getting thrown into the fire.  Would you agree?

Different Mike- but I do disagree.

Crane operators in Manhattan- where I live- have killed people.To my knowledge- no gca has ever killed a person. That is ONE of the reasons why you need a license to run a crane.

It might surprise many to know often GCA's have to deal with safety issues. That's why they carry liability insurance. Move a tee? Yep, safety issue. Re-design a bunker? Yep....Driving range and practice areas? All kinds of safety concerns.

I bet some of our savvy link hunters here can find numerous articles concerning lawsuits concerning golf courses where a person has died from being struck due to proximity issues, etc.....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2016, 09:40:59 PM »

I bet some of our savvy link hunters here can find numerous articles concerning lawsuits concerning golf courses where a person has died from being struck due to proximity issues, etc.....


I gave this a quick search because I thought you were overstating the incidence of death by golf ball.  From the first two stories I found, it seems to happen once every year or two.  One of the people killed was a maintenance worker struck 100 feet away from the tee.  But, more than half the instances cited were others in the same foursome as the golfer who hit the shot, who had wandered ahead before he played.  Let that be a lesson to everyone on the forum!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2016, 10:43:03 PM »
Mike, I always wonder how guys become crane operators.  You have training, you probably study under a crane operator, watch how he works and try to pick up his tricks, but it's too expensive to put training wheels on and practice and get a feel for the machine.  One day you actually have to get in the crane and get shit done.  That machine needs to maximize productivity for the project to get completed on time and on budget. 


I imagine becoming a golf architect is sort of the same.  You can learn from the ground up, study under the best guys, and watch how they handle certain situations and soak everything in, but eventually anyone that gets their first job designing is getting thrown into the fire.  Would you agree?

I agree .... so we need some fires for you guys...if a guy gets one fire a year he will be doing well now.... ;D ;D   
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2016, 11:23:40 PM »
I don't know if we need more fires.  The industry seems content right now.  A healthy golf construction market and young guys gaining useful routing/new build experience look to be mutually exclusive.  I'm happy to lay in the cut learning as much as I can while the market continues to correct itself.  I'd rather the golf industry find a healthy equilibrium than sacrifice saturation for some short term gain. 
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 11:25:14 PM by Blake Conant »

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2016, 06:26:01 AM »

I bet some of our savvy link hunters here can find numerous articles concerning lawsuits concerning golf courses where a person has died from being struck due to proximity issues, etc.....


I gave this a quick search because I thought you were overstating the incidence of death by golf ball.  From the first two stories I found, it seems to happen once every year or two.  One of the people killed was a maintenance worker struck 100 feet away from the tee.  But, more than half the instances cited were others in the same foursome as the golfer who hit the shot, who had wandered ahead before he played.  Let that be a lesson to everyone on the forum!


Joe


Every business probably needs some sort of General Liability insurance coverage- and that is why they are cheap. When you are dealing with towering cranes in wind swept canyons of buildings and streets filled with people- it is a different level of risk!



In doing a Google search- I did find this old GCA thread where Jeff Brauer commented:


Peter,

As someone on this site pointed out, there are actually far fewer lawsuits about safety than most would have you believe.  It's just that we hear about the ones that do happen, and get a bit fearful.

As Jeff alluded, lawsuits come down to expert witnesses.  Most architects believe that a safety standard published in a book is a bad thing, because a witness could come in and prove, that your design is one inch short of a printed standard, and you may be liable, even if the situation actually makes sense otherwise and is safe.

ASGCA thought about putting out safety standards in the 70's, but were advised against by attornies for reasons above.  The last time we met with European architects, they were hot to do the same thing (in 2000) but we couldn't talk them out of it.  Maybe someone over there could get you a copy.

Most architects do start with standards about in line with Rando or Hurdzan's though.  The more interesting aspect to me is not pure separation, but angles of play.  There are certain zones, usually about 15 degrees each side of intended line of play where most shots land.  I have long contended that some of the genius of Ross routings can't be replicated today, because he was not afraid to put a tee adjacent to fairway landing zone while creating his "fan shaped" routings.  The tendency today is to line up tees and greens a bit more to keep high concentration zones like tees away from critical areas.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,4661.0

Maybe Jeff can update and comment-
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 06:30:53 AM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Mike_Young

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Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2016, 07:18:19 AM »
I don't know if we need more fires.  The industry seems content right now.  A healthy golf construction market and young guys gaining useful routing/new build experience look to be mutually exclusive.  I'm happy to lay in the cut learning as much as I can while the market continues to correct itself.  I'd rather the golf industry find a healthy equilibrium than sacrifice saturation for some short term gain.

I wasn't saying saturation....if golf can just stay away from residential development it should be healthy.  That's what the main culprit was. IMHO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: ???Renovation is to GCA as long drive champions are to golf???
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2016, 11:15:45 AM »
I think as of fall 2014 OSHA requires a certification to operate a crane (at least in most in states), and rightfully so I'd say. I did 2 levels of a heavy equipment operator school and got some certification, not because I needed it to run the machines on a golf course, but mostly so I could talk my way into working for a golf contractor... I'm glad I did it for a number of reasons, but I'm glad you don't need to be certified to build golf courses






Mike - 1 fire a year, and maybe helping a few friends extinguish theirs before the next spark ignites is going to the way things go for an eager and talent young engine driver over the next few years.