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BCowan

I asked the question how long can an irrigation system last with fixes here and there?  I was given one answer of 50 years.  Also the pump.   Is there a point when the lines break so often that it is more cost prohibited to replace the whole system?  What is a public course to do with a $1 million dollar price tag?  Has the owner saved enough over the course of 20-50 years to replace system.  Some benefits to new system, potential for wider fairways, consistently better conditions, less water usage, and the ability to tweak some mowing lines.   

Justin VanLanduit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Irrigation life spans, replacement, solutions for Public courses
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2016, 06:14:15 AM »
We are in the process of planning a new irrigation system at our club.  When installed the system being replaced will be 18yrs old.  Over the last few years we have seen a substantial increase in maintenance needs but for the most part we are targeting watering cycles and coverage.  Currently, our system is a double row where the old asbestos mainline was not replace in 2000.  The current mainline can handle about 800-900 gallons a minute while our pumping station can handle 1600 this makes our water windows very long.  The double row system doesn't allow us to be precise with water as if we want to water in product on fwys we are throwing a bunch of water in the rough or vice versa.  Goals we have  are approaching is to shorten our water window, give us more control over where our water goes, and build a system that is viable for the next 40yrs or so.  HDPE pipe will give us the ability to have pipe that will be fused together to eliminate issues where glue fittings come apart allowing for the system to last a long time and reduce your maintenance costs.  Enlarging pipe will allow us to shorten our water windows which in turn reduces our electricity use but also creating better play ability throughout the golf course and can help when it comes to disease issues.  Lastly, controlling our water will give us the ability to meet restriction guidelines better when the become present here in Illinois along with helping create better play ability throughout the golf course by watering whats needed.  We are looking at a price tag of 1.25-1.5mil; could go a lot more depending on bells n whistles.  So far the time that I've spent with our consultant has been an education.  Seeing many spots around greens where spacing of our last system is not on point; areas of the greens aren't receiving the water that they should.  So much technology has changed these days that can allow a property to design and install a system that can last much longer and be much more efficient than ever before.  We are also looking at a 2 wire system so we will no long have satellite boxes on the golf course and if renovations or alterations to the course are done in the future, no long are wires needed pulled all over the hole.  Splice into the wire and input sprinkler head code in computer and you are live. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Irrigation life spans, replacement, solutions for Public courses
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2016, 08:30:15 AM »
Ben,

Irrigation life span varies a lot, depending on materials used and design.  The old standard was Class 200 PVC, but many used Class 160 to save money up front, at the expense of life span.  Now the standard is HDPE, a bit more expensive, but almost indestructible.  Of course, fittings are always the weakest link on PVC pipe, and they range in life span, too.

The other factor is the original (or in the case of head additions over the years) flow velocity.  If designed around 4-5 feet/second, pressure at the joints is much less and a PVC system can last 25 years or more.  If the system has velocities of 5-7, after 15-20 years, you get into a few breaks a week.  At some point, the cost of fixing is at least as much as the cost of debt on a new system.

To keep costs near a million, the only ways to do it are to reduce both bells and whistles (i.e. a degree of control flexibility) and pipe size, usually done by keeping the water window at the traditional 8-10 hours.  The modern super is asked a lot, and some of it is keeping their operations away from golfers at more and more clubs (i.e., mow very early or even at night) In response, many new systems aim to water in 6 hours or less, so watering allows players to play to dark and stops hours before the mowers need to start running in the morning.  Nice ideas, but does increase pump and pipe size substantially. 

And, on the hottest days, it means you may be watering periphery areas during the day to keep up. But, thousands of courses have managed that, so maybe standards are getting too high.  I asked an old super what the risk of watering on hot afternoons was and he replied, "Old guys getting naked and running through the sprinklers." 

I stand corrected, maybe watering in six hours is worth going into hundreds of thousands of extra debt to avoid that!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Irrigation life spans, replacement, solutions for Public courses
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2016, 09:06:34 AM »
A couple of years ago our club got estimates on replacing our irrigation system.


When I saw the numbers my first thought was that I want to start an irrigation company.


Bob

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Irrigation life spans, replacement, solutions for Public courses
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2016, 10:04:18 AM »
For 12000 courses in the US none of the above is practical.  $40 average green fee ( may be high) x 25,000 rounds ( may be high) is $1 million revenue.   2 guys with hoses and quick couplers at tees and greens is $30 bucks an hour at many places.  Say 4 hours per day for 7 days is $850 a week for maybe 25 weeks.  The systems mentioned only work for munis where the debt doesn't have to be paid back or private where the membership dues can pay.  The average public owner can't do it.  The ingenious of many of the supts working at these places is rarely seen in magazines.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

BCowan

Re: Irrigation life spans, replacement, solutions for Public courses
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2016, 09:24:48 PM »
We are in the process of planning a new irrigation system at our club.  When installed the system being replaced will be 18yrs old.  Over the last few years we have seen a substantial increase in maintenance needs but for the most part we are targeting watering cycles and coverage.  Currently, our system is a double row where the old asbestos mainline was not replace in 2000.  The current mainline can handle about 800-900 gallons a minute while our pumping station can handle 1600 this makes our water windows very long.  The double row system doesn't allow us to be precise with water as if we want to water in product on fwys we are throwing a bunch of water in the rough or vice versa.  Goals we have  are approaching is to shorten our water window, give us more control over where our water goes, and build a system that is viable for the next 40yrs or so.  HDPE pipe will give us the ability to have pipe that will be fused together to eliminate issues where glue fittings come apart allowing for the system to last a long time and reduce your maintenance costs.  Enlarging pipe will allow us to shorten our water windows which in turn reduces our electricity use but also creating better play ability throughout the golf course and can help when it comes to disease issues.  Lastly, controlling our water will give us the ability to meet restriction guidelines better when the become present here in Illinois along with helping create better play ability throughout the golf course by watering whats needed.  We are looking at a price tag of 1.25-1.5mil; could go a lot more depending on bells n whistles.  So far the time that I've spent with our consultant has been an education.  Seeing many spots around greens where spacing of our last system is not on point; areas of the greens aren't receiving the water that they should.  So much technology has changed these days that can allow a property to design and install a system that can last much longer and be much more efficient than ever before.  We are also looking at a 2 wire system so we will no long have satellite boxes on the golf course and if renovations or alterations to the course are done in the future, no long are wires needed pulled all over the hole.  Splice into the wire and input sprinkler head code in computer and you are live.

Justin,

   Thanks for your thoughtful response as well as others.  For public tracks charging over $50+ in green fees on the weekends this seems like a good possible solution. Justin, not including special club or outside tourney's will this eliminate hand watering for you in your estimation?  This frees up time to verticut.  Fused pipe, awesome! 

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Irrigation life spans, replacement, solutions for Public courses
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2016, 12:28:16 AM »
The need for a new irrigation system is totally subjective.  There is no right or wrong, only what can we do or not do.  To genralize the need for new irrigation is a huge mistake.


And there really is no solution to...well if we now don't have to hand water can we free up labor to do other things. It just doesn't work that way.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Irrigation life spans, replacement, solutions for Public courses
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2016, 07:16:48 AM »
 We installed a multimillion irrigation system this summer. Rainbird IC system (2 wire) HDPE piping. We installed a 800 macron screen filtration system to keep as many contaminants out of our water. All our bunkers have misters around them to water the banks/turf and not necessarily water the sand. (or not to have to turn on a big, fairway head to water a bunker bank.)
 We also have small heads around our tee tops to water only the top and surround, keeping the water off the paths and also out of the marshes.
  Will we still have to handwater? You bet cha. Everyday. Handwatering will always be the best way to get water EXACTLY where it needs to be. If you only have 2-3 spots that need water on a green, why would you turn on a head that waters 25% of the green, unless you just do not have the manpower? The most detailed irrigation systems still require handwatering.
  Lastly, if any courses were able to not have to handwater for what every reason, especially a public track, theyre not going to be dedicating that employee to verticutting.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Justin VanLanduit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Irrigation life spans, replacement, solutions for Public courses
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2016, 08:11:30 AM »
We are in the process of planning a new irrigation system at our club.  When installed the system being replaced will be 18yrs old.  Over the last few years we have seen a substantial increase in maintenance needs but for the most part we are targeting watering cycles and coverage.  Currently, our system is a double row where the old asbestos mainline was not replace in 2000.  The current mainline can handle about 800-900 gallons a minute while our pumping station can handle 1600 this makes our water windows very long.  The double row system doesn't allow us to be precise with water as if we want to water in product on fwys we are throwing a bunch of water in the rough or vice versa.  Goals we have  are approaching is to shorten our water window, give us more control over where our water goes, and build a system that is viable for the next 40yrs or so.  HDPE pipe will give us the ability to have pipe that will be fused together to eliminate issues where glue fittings come apart allowing for the system to last a long time and reduce your maintenance costs.  Enlarging pipe will allow us to shorten our water windows which in turn reduces our electricity use but also creating better play ability throughout the golf course and can help when it comes to disease issues.  Lastly, controlling our water will give us the ability to meet restriction guidelines better when the become present here in Illinois along with helping create better play ability throughout the golf course by watering whats needed.  We are looking at a price tag of 1.25-1.5mil; could go a lot more depending on bells n whistles.  So far the time that I've spent with our consultant has been an education.  Seeing many spots around greens where spacing of our last system is not on point; areas of the greens aren't receiving the water that they should.  So much technology has changed these days that can allow a property to design and install a system that can last much longer and be much more efficient than ever before.  We are also looking at a 2 wire system so we will no long have satellite boxes on the golf course and if renovations or alterations to the course are done in the future, no long are wires needed pulled all over the hole.  Splice into the wire and input sprinkler head code in computer and you are live.

Justin,

   Thanks for your thoughtful response as well as others.  For public tracks charging over $50+ in green fees on the weekends this seems like a good possible solution. Justin, not including special club or outside tourney's will this eliminate hand watering for you in your estimation?  This frees up time to verticut.  Fused pipe, awesome!


This will not eliminate hand watering.  That will always be a practice of ours so that way we continue to give the best consistent play ability to the golf course as possible.  May it reduce it?  Yes.  As many have stated, irrigation systems can be subjective.  All comes down to expectations of the golfing audience at that club.  It's a hefty price tag for sure but a very vital part to a golf course in many climates; here in the Midwest it's borderline.  When we were interviewing consultants this spring we were on track to have 12" of water from through April and May but then our dry spell through June, July, and early August showed us again why we need to look into and plan for this investment.  Replacing turf, losing rounds, etc... can add up very fast.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Irrigation life spans, replacement, solutions for Public courses
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2016, 11:14:28 AM »
For 12000 courses in the US none of the above is practical.  $40 average green fee ( may be high) x 25,000 rounds ( may be high) is $1 million revenue.   2 guys with hoses and quick couplers at tees and greens is $30 bucks an hour at many places.  Say 4 hours per day for 7 days is $850 a week for maybe 25 weeks.  The systems mentioned only work for munis where the debt doesn't have to be paid back or private where the membership dues can pay.  The average public owner can't do it.  The ingenious of many of the supts working at these places is rarely seen in magazines.

Mike,

My experience was that rising labor costs were the single biggest cause of automated irrigation, back when they were going from a minimum wage of $1.65 per hour to $1.80!  And, most courses were paying $2-2.25 for better workers.

I recall designing a single row fairway QVC for a developer.  Since he figured he would be selling the course in 7 years tops, we figured out his labor costs vs. up front cost of sprinklers, controllers, etc.  Even he opted for the extra cost of automation, and this was 1979.......

Agree it won't eliminate hand watering that a good super knows they have to do, but it would sure minimize it.  Your example has a few problems - those debt free munis also tend to send more golf money "downtown" and, you have no hours in for system maintenance, etc.

Agree with whoever said there is not one perfect solution.  As per above, you run the short term, debt, and long term labor costs and come up with some solution, most often probably somewhere in the middle of the Mercedes and Quick Coupler system.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Irrigation life spans, replacement, solutions for Public courses
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2016, 11:42:09 AM »
How long until fleets of hose-carrying drones are deployed to "hand-water" areas of golf courses where it's needed? Given that they can be programmed with pre-set flight paths, this seems inevitable.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

BCowan

Re: Irrigation life spans, replacement, solutions for Public courses New
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2016, 08:23:27 PM »
We are in the process of planning a new irrigation system at our club.  When installed the system being replaced will be 18yrs old.  Over the last few years we have seen a substantial increase in maintenance needs but for the most part we are targeting watering cycles and coverage.  Currently, our system is a double row where the old asbestos mainline was not replace in 2000.  The current mainline can handle about 800-900 gallons a minute while our pumping station can handle 1600 this makes our water windows very long.  The double row system doesn't allow us to be precise with water as if we want to water in product on fwys we are throwing a bunch of water in the rough or vice versa.  Goals we have  are approaching is to shorten our water window, give us more control over where our water goes, and build a system that is viable for the next 40yrs or so.  HDPE pipe will give us the ability to have pipe that will be fused together to eliminate issues where glue fittings come apart allowing for the system to last a long time and reduce your maintenance costs.  Enlarging pipe will allow us to shorten our water windows which in turn reduces our electricity use but also creating better play ability throughout the golf course and can help when it comes to disease issues.  Lastly, controlling our water will give us the ability to meet restriction guidelines better when the become present here in Illinois along with helping create better play ability throughout the golf course by watering whats needed.  We are looking at a price tag of 1.25-1.5mil; could go a lot more depending on bells n whistles.  So far the time that I've spent with our consultant has been an education.  Seeing many spots around greens where spacing of our last system is not on point; areas of the greens aren't receiving the water that they should.  So much technology has changed these days that can allow a property to design and install a system that can last much longer and be much more efficient than ever before.  We are also looking at a 2 wire system so we will no long have satellite boxes on the golf course and if renovations or alterations to the course are done in the future, no long are wires needed pulled all over the hole.  Splice into the wire and input sprinkler head code in computer and you are live.

Justin,

   Thanks for your thoughtful response as well as others.  For public tracks charging over $50+ in green fees on the weekends this seems like a good possible solution. Justin, not including special club or outside tourney's will this eliminate hand watering for you in your estimation?  This frees up time to verticut.  Fused pipe, awesome!


This will not eliminate hand watering.  That will always be a practice of ours so that way we continue to give the best consistent play ability to the golf course as possible.  May it reduce it?  Yes.  As many have stated, irrigation systems can be subjective.  All comes down to expectations of the golfing audience at that club.  It's a hefty price tag for sure but a very vital part to a golf course in many climates; here in the Midwest it's borderline.  When we were interviewing consultants this spring we were on track to have 12" of water from through April and May but then our dry spell through June, July, and early August showed us again why we need to look into and plan for this investment.  Replacing turf, losing rounds, etc... can add up very fast.

Justin,

   I should of changed the parameters with my question.  If the goal is to maintain greens at 9.5-10 with the newest grasses (Flagstick) and you want to maint them very firm, is getting by without hand watering a possibility with a great irrigation system?  Yes, I am referring to midwest golf courses. 

   If the greens are kept at 9.5-10 day in and day out with newer strands of grass, could we get by without hand watering? When you refer to hand watering are you mainly talking about syringing greens when it's warm out, above 87 degs or so?   Many of the great new grasses are taken to the limit with HOC and it seems that only the clubs with financial means experiment with the new grass varieties and they always push them to the limit with unreasonable expectations and sometimes possibly skew results?  Looking forward to your response.  I agree with looking to a long term investment and I'm curious if mid-upper level public courses have long term course plans as well.?.? 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 10:05:16 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

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