[Jason Topp]

We had a club event last night from the forward tees - which measure just over 5,000 yards.  It was  a lot of fun.  The par fives became reachable in two and a few of the par 4's became drivable.  A few impressions:

1.  You still need to hit good shots to score.  It was critical to keep the ball in play off the tee and then hit 50-100 yard wedge shots close.  I had a double bogey on a lost ball and made another bogey by having a fanned iron shot hit a tree and wind up in the native areas.

2.  You need to remain patient.  Before I started I mentioned to one of the pros that "Maybe I can break 80."  He said - "you better."  I felt myself pressing early in the round and got over par right away.  After that I had a bunch of birdie putts from 10-15 feet and most of them did not go in - but a few did.

3.  Shorter distances take a lot of pressure off the tee ball.  As long as you are in play, you are going to have a chance to hit the green.

4.  For me - 450 yard par 5's are ideal holes.  I can reach the green with two good shots but often going for the green was not the best play.  Leaving an angle gave me the best chance at birdie.  I believe 450 yard par fives would be enjoyed by most of us.

5.  Even if I hit it 100 yards farther, I would still not be all that great at the game.  I shot 76 (as an 11 handicap) hitting the ball pretty well and on the front 9 shot 40 which would not be an unusual score for me from the 6600 yard tees I normally play. 

6.  Short par threes are very fun.  Even though most of the par 3's played in the 130 yard range, they still were among the most  difficult holes on the course.  I found myself aiming towards the middle of the green rather than at the hole.

7.  Our closing hole would be better (for me) as a 410 yard par 4 than it is as a 550 yard par five.  The hole is pretty awkward from the normal tee for me with an uphill tee shot to a fairway bending right around a creek, a layup to a fairway pinched pretty tightly by water on one side and wetlands on the other.  It gets more interesting form longer hitters who can bit off chunks of yardage by carrying corners.  From the forward tee you can leave the ball back at 180 uphill to a tightly guarded green with water wrapping around the right side or hit drive to a tighter fairway in order to have a shorter yardage on a difficult approach.   At least for me, the hole is better as a difficult par 4. 

8.  Our course is not rated by the USGA for men from the forward tees.  That does not make much sense.  With "Tee it forward" and other similar campaigns, not having a course rating and slope for men only serves to discourage participation.  I do not know whether or not it is normal omit rating from the forward tees.  (it is possible to figure out an appropriate rating by adjusting based on the USGA handicap manual.) 

Dan Kelly once suggested on here that I try the forward tees and I responded with some sort of snide comment.  I have now tried it and recommend it for anyone who has played a lot of golf this season and is looking to break out of the doldrums.

[Tom_Doak]

You will also find out if your course is well designed or not.  Some courses suck from short yardage because they force you to lay up off the tees a lot.


A good bet is "how short would I have to play the course to shoot even par?"  It is way shorter than most people guess.

[Greg Tallman]

Topper, Back when I had a staff  we had an event from the forward tees. 9 or 10 professionals, 36 holes (Ocean / Desert). If you finished over par you had to pay double to the winner. Winning score was like 15 under but a couple of guys had to double the ante. Thankfully I was not one of them.

It was a blast. We have a few par 4s that are great par 3s from the forward tees and some 5s that are just awkward enough to leave you scratching your head. Highly recommended.   

[Thomas Dai]

Quite a bit under 5,000 yds and simply wonderful - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53841.0.html


And if you reckon it's too short for your game play it with a restricted ball!

As a slight aside, I once played a 6,000yd par 68 course with a 7 hcp friend. Afterwards he commented that he thought the course was too short and too easy for him. I asked how he had scored in relation to his hcp. He replied 3-over nett. He was a little surprised when I then said that the course wasn't too short or too easy for him as he was 10 over par and that the course shouldn't be considered too short or too easy for him until he could shoot level par or better every time he played it.

Atb

[Sean Ogle]

One of my all time favorite holes is a par 5 that plays 471 yards from the tips: #14 on the Witch Hollow course at Pumpkin Ridge.


A good drive still gives you a long iron into an extremely well protected green with out of bounds long and water left. That second shot is the most enjoyable shot on the course, but I still end up laying up a 1/3 of the time, as it's often not the smart play.


Plays a brutal par 4 during tournaments, but for me as an 8 handicap, I would love to see more holes like this. You see just as many doubles as birdies.


Point is, I agree with the idea of a really short par 5, as long as it's used sparingly and in the correct way.

[PCCraig]

Jason,


Yes. I've played T&C quite a few times from 5,000 yards when playing with my wife. It's pretty fun to do every once in a while and a good way to mix things up.


When you play T&C from that length, the par-5's all become really fun. The tee shot on the 4th you can actually try to get it up on top of the hill. The 12th plays really short because you can easily catch a big downslope, the 15th, 16th, and 17th are all fun too. The 9th is also a lot of fun because it's pretty easy to get it to the big downslope and try to run your ball close to the green.

[Joe Zucker]

I used to do this a lot in high school and college to prepare for competitive rounds.  We all have a score where we start to feel uncomfortable because it is too good.  Playing from the most forward tees is great because it improves your wedges and allows you to get used to the feeling of being 5-10 shots better than your average.  Hopefully next time you're hot from your regular tees the feeling isn't scary.


I haven't thought too much about it from an architectural perspective. We almost always blasted driver everywhere and tried to get up and down with a pitch shot.  On only a few holes would we layup to to a yardage intentionally.  This probably speaks more to our risky youthfulness than to the quality of the course design.  For the record, the course was a Pete Dye outside of Cleveland, Fowler's Mill.

[MCirba]

Jason,

Good post.   

Not exactly the same, but related this past Sunday morning at the crack of dawn I arrived at a public course in upstate NY that had been designed by the owner and played walking from the tips at 5887 yards, par 69 in two hours.   

Inspired, I drove a half mile down the road where there was a nine-hole par three course of 1416 yards, circa 1962 where I walked/played in an hour.

I was back to the kids/grandkids as breakfast was being made just before 10am.   

[Thomas Dai]

5,000 yds for me is pretty much the equivalent distance of a 7,500 yd course played by the likes of Rory and Justin and Jason.


Anyone else brave enough (!) to indicate their personal yardage equivalent to R, J and J when their playing 7,500 yds?


Atb

[Jason Topp]

5,000 yds for me is pretty much the equivalent distance of a 7,500 yd course played by the likes of Rory and Justin and Jason.


Anyone else brave enough (!) to indicate their personal yardage equivalent to R, J and J when their playing 7,500 yds?


Atb

My good drive is around 240-250 and theirs is probably 300-320 so I would guess I would need to knock off 20-25% of the yardage which would put me around 5600 - 6000 yards.

[Jamey Bryan]

Similar to Joe Zucker's post....

35+ years ago Jack Lumpkin (now at Sea Island and Davis Love's coach) was my pro at Cherokee in Atlanta.  After three or four lessons, Jack wanted me to start playing afternoon practice rounds from the most forward tees to get me more accustomed to making birdies and "going low."  It did help tremendously with my mental barriers, and was a lot of fun.  It also made me recognize that position is often much more important to the approach than simply being close.

Jamey

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played from the "Senior tees" last week with a friend. I guess it is about 5200 yards. I hated it. I didn't feel like I played golf. Yet, I didn't score very well. It was hard to keep my head in the game.

[Mike Hamilton]

You will also find out if your course is well designed or not.  Some courses suck from short yardage because they force you to lay up off the tees a lot.

I dealt with this a lot when my sons were younger (as opposed to out driving me by 40 yards as my 16 yr old is now doing).  They would play from the forward tees, but more frequently than I would have liked to believe the shot rhythm would not work even if they hit the ball decently.   Most frustrating were situations where they could hit a good drive, but then face either a certain lost ball due to a forced carry that was likely beyond their capabilities or a 50 yard layup to the edge of a hazard to get to a distance that was playable for them.

[Matthew Hunt]

Quite a bit under 5,000 yds and simply wonderful - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53841.0.html

That is exactly the course that came to my head. It is a great challenge at under 5000 yards. It is tight off the tee but it is fair. On the new 2016 layout the middle 9 from from 6-14 is up there in quality with the number 1 course and the short 3rd, dogleg through the dunes 6th and spectacular looking 10th are contenders for best hole on the property.

[David_Tepper]

Given that intermediate wedge shots (25 to 75 yards) are usually the weakest part of most golfers games (say those with handicaps of 8 to 22), I can see where scoring well on a course that short could be a problem, as you would be hitting a lot of those wedges for your 2nd shot on the par-4's.

Of course, the same golfers are likely to hit a lot of intermediate wedges on a 7,000 yard course, but as their 3rd shot on many par-4's.

That is why I like playing 6,000 yard courses.   

[Will Peterson]

It's a lot of fun, and I wish more of my friends would do it more often.  I have a couple of customers who play tees at 5000-5300, and I join them when we play together.  I always have a great time, and have found you still have to focus to shoot good numbers.  You also end up in some very interesting spots that can lead to some awkward shots.  I have shot some very low scores with them, and they told many people an exaggerated story of my golfing skill.

[Tom_Doak]

Not exactly the same, but related this past Sunday morning at the crack of dawn I arrived at a public course in upstate NY that had been designed by the owner and played walking from the tips at 5887 yards, par 69 in two hours.   

Inspired, I drove a half mile down the road where there was a nine-hole par three course of 1416 yards, circa 1962 where I walked/played in an hour.

5887 + 1416 = 7,303 yards


But it's a par 96 !

[Bill_McBride]

You will also find out if your course is well designed or not.  Some courses suck from short yardage because they force you to lay up off the tees a lot.

I dealt with this a lot when my sons were younger (as opposed to out driving me by 40 yards as my 16 yr old is now doing).  They would play from the forward tees, but more frequently than I would have liked to believe the shot rhythm would not work even if they hit the ball decently.   Most frustrating were situations where they could hit a good drive, but then face either a certain lost ball due to a forced carry that was likely beyond their capabilities or a 50 yard layup to the edge of a hazard to get to a distance that was playable for them.

Mike, that's what the ladies deal with all the time.   

[Bill_McBride]

In my long experience, most shots are lost inside 100 yards.  Shorter is not necessarily proportionally easier. 

[Peter Pallotta]

In my long experience, most shots are lost inside 100 yards.  Shorter is not necessarily proportionally easier.

This is very true. 

Also: hitting driver badly is annoying; hitting 4 iron badly after "playing smart" is exponentially more annoying; being left with a 72 yard pitch over bunkers from the rough....priceless.

If architects are asked to build some now-fashionable "short par 4s", they should build them no longer than 262 yards.  That should kill the buzz pretty quick.... 

[Jim Hoak]

I have read that some college coaches put their players off the front tees in a practice round to teach them how to go low.  Makes sense.

[MCirba]

Not exactly the same, but related this past Sunday morning at the crack of dawn I arrived at a public course in upstate NY that had been designed by the owner and played walking from the tips at 5887 yards, par 69 in two hours.   

Inspired, I drove a half mile down the road where there was a nine-hole par three course of 1416 yards, circa 1962 where I walked/played in an hour.

5887 + 1416 = 7,303 yards


But it's a par 96 !

Par Schmar, Tom.   

All I know is it took me 109 strokes to negotiate. 

Did I mention I have a broken little toe?   

Point well taken.

[Matthew Petersen]

I used to do this a lot in high school and college to prepare for competitive rounds.  We all have a score where we start to feel uncomfortable because it is too good.  Playing from the most forward tees is great because it improves your wedges and allows you to get used to the feeling of being 5-10 shots better than your average.  Hopefully next time you're hot from your regular tees the feeling isn't scary.


I haven't thought too much about it from an architectural perspective. We almost always blasted driver everywhere and tried to get up and down with a pitch shot.  On only a few holes would we layup to to a yardage intentionally.  This probably speaks more to our risky youthfulness than to the quality of the course design.  For the record, the course was a Pete Dye outside of Cleveland, Fowler's Mill.

I also did this with some regularity when on my high school team. We'd play the same 9 holes nearly every day after school and at some point it helps to mix it up. Play the same holes from the same tees all the time and you end up hitting the same clubs and shots day after day, so it helps you try other shots, get used to thinking about how to play a hole (even if you've played it many, many times before), and overall just puts you in a lot of positions where you wouldn't normally be.


I always thought it was great. Anti definitely does show you how good your game is from inside 100 yards. Plenty of people (me included, at that point) we basically no better from the forward tees than from the back.

[Sean_A]

I rarely play courses inside 5000 yards, but I often play from "ladies" tees.  Its hard to find courses with tees around 5000 yards that isn't a herky jerky mess of a walk. I did play Formby Ladies earlier this year, but its 5400ish.  However, one still gets the idea of a short course and for me at least, I think more, many more courses of this sort of length should be built.  Formby Ladies isn't a great course, but it comfortably makes my Happy 100.  Conclusion: women should be far more involved in course design.


Of course, there is Painswick which comes in at less than 5000 yards and if one can play to their cap round there they have played well.  And there is the lovely Church Stretton!  Its a over over 5000 yards, but considering how hilly the place is that could be one bit of rollout on a par 3! 

Ciao

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Coombe Wood in Kingston is an 18-hole course of just over 5,000 yards from the back tees. I used to play it a lot when I lived in London because it welcomed members of the Concert Golf Society. It was a good course with plenty of character. Although one did tend to score well on the course it had the capacity to put egg on your face here and there if you played a careless shot. It was just over the fence from illustrious Coombe Hill.

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