[BCowan]

How much more yearly is maintaining 65 acres of newer Bents vs low mow Bluegrass fairways?  I know answer depends on location but could some keeper or archie give me an idea, range, and or guess please?  Thanks...

[Joe Hancock]

Ben,

I know you're asking a financial question, but a bigger part of the equation is that once you differentiate fairways and roughs with different grass varieties, you make the task of changing/ improving mow patterns that much more complex.

[Peter Pallotta]

Joe - it stuck me that you seemed to give "changing" and "improving" the same "value" (for lack of a better word).

I thought that one of the ways an architect might help ensure (but not guarantee) that his planned 50 yard wide fairways didn't become 30 yards one day was to use different grasses.

Is that true? And if it is, is that potential benefit offset by downsides I don't know about?

Peter 

[Joe Hancock]

Peter,

I didn't feel committed to one or the other, because things change; superintendents, equipment(both playing and maintaining), architects' preferences, etc.

There's a lot of courses with messed up grass lines, IMO, and those grass lines are exactly where the original architect cemented them in place with different grass species. Changing for the better becomes an expensive recommendation.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks Joe.
I was hoping to assume that no architect would cement into place less than ideal mowing lines, but you know architects better than I do
Peter

[BCowan]

Looking forward to hearing from some keepers and getting their opinions

[Bradley Anderson]

Given that rye fairways can be very susceptible to grey leaf spot - very nasty pathogen - depending on location, I would say the choice is between bent and blue. Or fescue. Fescue is ideal for sandy soils and even in some clayey soils it can work. The fescue fairways at the French Lick Donald Ross are pretty good on clayey soil.


Comparing between bent and blue: both require the same degree of mowing and thatch/grain management programs. Irrigation can go longer between cycles with bluegrass, but the volume of water could be equal to bent because the key to bluegrass, even more so than bent, is deep infrequent watering. Possibly you could get by with less sophistication in irrigation with bluegrass than with bent grass but that would be for a consultant to determine.


Fertilizer and weed control is going to run a little more on bluegrass than bent grass but not by much.


The cost difference is going to be in fungicides. Bent will have to be sprayed for dollar spot. Dollar spot control is going to run $3.00 - $8.00 per acre per day depending on which products you use. The number of days depends on how quickly things warm up in the spring. Some years you won't see dollar spot on fairways until late May. Warm fall weather can trigger mid fall applications.


There are some newer blue grasses that are actually a pretty good playing surface but blue grass will never carry the cachet that bent grass does.


One other consideration is the grow in time for bluegrass. If unforeseen circumstances push the seeding date back into late September, or heaven forbid, October, there is a good chance that the blue grass will not be mature enough for cart traffic on the following year. The bent grass will have a much better chance of being playable with a late seeding - certainly the bent will be playable sooner than the blue grass.

[BCowan]

Bradley,

   Thanks for the detailed reply.  I didn't know the DR French Lick course had Fescue fairways.  I didn't think they could handle that Summer heat and humidity down in Southern Indiana.  Do they do less rounds per day

   Is 007 and some of the newer bents any better with dollar spots?  I've heard some of the newer Blues are slow to respond in the Spring.  Do you think Fescue could handle 20,000+ rounds with 50% of them with carts in lets say the 41st Parallel? 

[Jimmy Cavezza]

There are several great Fescue turfgrass golf courses on the 41st parallel, but I'm not sure how many of them withstand 20,000 rounds of cart traffic.  The width that 65 acres of fairways give will help.  A lot of the newer bentgrasses are better with dollar spot but you still have to spray!  You can check the NTEP trials to see how the newer grasses both bent and blues handle different diseases and stresses.

[Jason Thurman]

The Ross at French Lick has Bermuda fairways, not fescue.

[Jerry Kluger]

Bermuda in Indiana - when does it usually come out of dormancy?


When I lived in the Washington, DC area there were a number of clubs that put in bent grass fairways and they were usually soaking wet - I always wondered why they would make that choice and then be more concerned about how they looked versus how they played.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thanks Joe.
I was hoping to assume that no architect would cement into place less than ideal mowing lines, but you know architects better than I do
Peter

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ten years ago, I saw a study showing fairway averaged $5,160 per acre (as Bradley notes, after establishment) vs.   $546 per acre for native plantings, or about 89% savings.

Thought the article had some differences between fw and rough, but was wrong.  Between the extra $30K chemicals for bent and mowing about half as frequently, I suspect the cost would be about 2/3 of fairways overall, depending on how you allocate some general overhead.  If so, then converting half of those 65 acres to rough, would probably save $50-60K per year on average, perhaps a bit less.

Mike,

You have to presume that is a rendering, and the lines would be reviewed in the field.....the first thing I notice there is that the 2nd and 17 greens are the same shape at different angles.....more problematic, I think.  I wonder if 1 and 18, 3 and 16, etc. are also the same shapes for "balance?"

[Jason Thurman]

Jerry, Bermuda around the Ohio Valley usually comes out of dormancy in May. The Ross at French Lick overseeds with rye in winter from what I've heard so it may be less of an issue for them. When they did their big renovation a few years ago, I remember being surprised that they didn't change the fairway turfgrass to zoysia or bent, aside from extending the bent out some 30 yards from each green to make the approaches behave more consistently with the putting surfaces.

[BCowan]

Ten years ago, I saw a study showing fairway averaged $5,160 per acre (as Bradley notes, after establishment) vs.   $546 per acre for native plantings, or about 89% savings.

Thought the article had some differences between fw and rough, but was wrong.  Between the extra $30K chemicals for bent and mowing about half as frequently, I suspect the cost would be about 2/3 of fairways overall, depending on how you allocate some general overhead.  If so, then converting half of those 65 acres to rough, would probably save $50-60K per year on average, perhaps a bit less.

Mike,

You have to presume that is a rendering, and the lines would be reviewed in the field.....the first thing I notice there is that the 2nd and 17 greens are the same shape at different angles.....more problematic, I think.  I wonder if 1 and 18, 3 and 16, etc. are also the same shapes for "balance?"

Jeff,

   Thanks for that $5,160 per acre for Bent number.  That seems reasonable.  How many acres of fairway is average course?  My guess is around 45-50 acres.  The plan for rough would be fine fescue seldom maintained.  Hence giving more money to focus on wider fairways.  Would a gang mower do a good job mowing newer Bent strands IYO or others?  If so that could lower the per Acre cost if we use the $5,160 number as starting point? 

[BCowan]

$5,160 per acre for Bent number

Jeff gave this number awhile back, does anyone agree or disagree?  Was wondering if any keepers on the board had a cost per acre to maint the new Bent varieties vs low mow Blue's? 

[Anthony_Nysse]

$5,160 per acre for Bent number

Jeff gave this number awhile back, does anyone agree or disagree?  Was wondering if any keepers on the board had a cost per acre to maint the new Bent varieties vs low mow Blue's?

Maybe $5k per year in pesticides. $5k/ year difference would be very low, IMO. Figure 30 acres on a average course.

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:


It's pretty hard to put hard numbers to the maintenance costs of fairways, because part of it is based on what you want to spend.  I guarantee you that some courses are spending 3x as much as others for the same grass, due to differences in climate, water costs, labor costs, and frequency of applications. 


Unfortunately, this makes it hard to compare the potential savings of lower-maintenance options.  You'd think that someone in the industry would publish a study to make it easier for everyone to make decisions, but I've never seen one. 


I do make a point of asking what the maintenance budget is at the clubs where I consult now, and the different numbers boggle my mind:  the range of responses this year has been from $450,000 to $3,200,000.

[BCowan]

Tom,

   You'd think that someone in the industry would publish a study to make it easier for everyone to make decisions, but I've never seen one.

    I agree completely and it is sad that nobody has, but it's done on purpose is my guess.  The difference between mid-upscale public and Private club spending is very eye opening.  We spend ridiculous amount of money on Bunkers which are suppose to be Hazards.  The newer grasses can save 30-40% on water and require less pesticides, yet budgets go up.  There also isn't any studies on taking these newer strands to the edge.  For example at the Meadowbrook renovation this year, Pure Distinction grass in sections from an Old green site was still green and looked great up until mid July with no irrigation and we have been in a drought up until this past week    .  It finally died this August with No irrigation. 

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Another consideration is how much money is available for cultural programs on the fairways.  If the answer is "not much" then I would steer you towards blue.  In my experience bluegrass is far easier to keep firm than bent simply via irrigation management, especially on a tight budget.  In the absence of aggressive cultural programs, baked out blue gets brown and firm, and baked out bent gets brown while staying soft. So if firmness is a priority (I hope), then blue gets the nod.  However, if the money and such is there then bent is a more aesthetic and "faster" fairway grass.  In short: blue=firmer with more bounce, bent=faster, with less bounce but more roll. 

Still another consideration is inevitable poa infestation down the road.  Your projected cost savings will erode over time as the poa percentage increases. This will happen with either grass.

As for fescue, cart traffic is a concern as it really doesn't handle wear all that well.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom,

   You'd think that someone in the industry would publish a study to make it easier for everyone to make decisions, but I've never seen one.

    I agree completely and it is sad that nobody has, but it's done on purpose is my guess.  The difference between mid-upscale public and Private club spending is very eye opening.  We spend ridiculous amount of money on Bunkers which are suppose to be Hazards.  The newer grasses can save 30-40% on water and require less pesticides, yet budgets go up.  There also isn't any studies on taking these newer strands to the edge.  For example at the Meadowbrook renovation this year, Pure Distinction grass in sections from an Old green site was still green and looked great up until mid July with no irrigation and we have been in a drought up until this past week    .  It finally died this August with No irrigation.

Ben,
 With my father being a golf course Superintendent and now being in the field myself for nearly 15 years, I can comfortably say that so much of the above information is too immature to consider it fact. Pure Distinction seems like an awesome grass and has show to be very positive in its use, but Id guess less than 20 courses have it an it's been on the ground for less than 5 years.
  As long as the golfers continue to demand faster firmer, pure greens, I am not sure pesticide use will go down to what most people would tolerate putting on. Every 3-4 years there is a grass that comes along that is the "best." L-93 was supposed to be the next best thing. We found out in a short period period of time, its a serious thatch maker. Big time. But Supts didn't know that for many years after it's use.
  Ultradwarfs, for example-many courses switched to Mini Verde and or Champion. Well, after 5-7 years, there are mutation issues with Mini Verde and Champion and these courses are going back to the original, standard grass of Tifeagle, which has been around for 20 years.

[BCowan]

Tony,

  The course I grew up with gassed their greens when I was a kid and I watched another course I'd worked at gas and redo their greens 3 times, been there done that.  None of those grasses have the root depth PD has its not even close.  Time will tell but im a believer in PD and I tend to be a skeptic of new and greatest. 

I personally think champion is superior to mini, but don't have enough southern experience. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tony,

  The course I grew up with gassed their greens when I was a kid and I watched another course I'd worked at gas and redo their greens 3 times, been there done that.  None of those grasses have the root depth PD has its not even close.  Time will tell but im a believer in PD and I tend to be a skeptic of new and greatest. 

I personally think champion is superior to mini, but don't have enough southern experience.

All grasses have extensive root mass and depth the first several years.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()