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Anthony Gholz

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Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« on: August 16, 2016, 02:56:00 PM »
Observations:


I spent yesterday at OH's watching the first round of qualifying for the US AM.  These guys are good, although Maverick M. shot 73 on the south before coming back with 69 on the north today.  He'll likely make match play.  49 rounds in the 60s yesterday including some 67s and 68s on the South.  They played the north at 6850, 400+ yards below its max and played a few holes on the south from up tees such as 9, 11, and 12.  The South ran 3 strokes tougher as might be expected.


I watched the saddle green at 11 for a while and also 8, 12, and 16/17.  The hill between 8 and 11 greens provides a good opportunity to view large areas of the  course.  I was struck by a few things.  To me the course looked tired.  Some of that is due to the drought conditions we've had in Michigan this year which has stressed the trees.  Also with fewer trees over the last couple years the cart paths stand out more.  I'm not sure we can blame the younger Jones for that as an aerial view from 1951 shows the cart paths between 8&11 and 1&9 as well as along the right of two have been there at least since then.


In addition I've been lead to believe that spruce trees are the worst of the worst for golf courses based on (un)playability, shadows cast all year long, and there ability to soak up water and nutrients.  I was struck by how many spruces Oakland Hills South still had.  They're all around 12 and 16, between 7 and 8, 11 and 16, right of 18, the list goes on.  The entrance to the club is stacked with (dying) spruce trees. I would have thought Oakland Hills of all places would have played up their oak trees and not the spruce trees.  Now several of them hide maintenance areas but I'mm talking here about trees where Phil M can hit it on 16 and other holes.  [size=78%]I also noticed that the big trees on the 8/11 green hill were making it tough to grow turf close to the 11th green, which the boys were flying with their down wind wedges.  [/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]On the positive side I watched [/size][/size]several players from directly behind the 17th tee.  It's a great uphill par-3 that's been slowly lengthened back to 237.  These guys were hitting long irons and a few hybrids.  From my view of Ross drawings and photos this hole has been relatively unchanged since the beginning.  Slipping over to 16 green, the back right bunker eliminated by RJ now allows the water to surround the right peninsula pin position.  I'm sure that's tougher on depth perception and more penalizing, but somehow makes the green more like a TPC course than Ross.  I also don't like the view from the fairway as the bunkers used to claim the hillside more.  The same aerial from 1951 shows the fairways on 16 and 17 completely melding together in '51.  Not sure how that affected play for the better player but more in keeping with Ross width than what Trent is normally associated with.  I also noticed that Jones had kept for '51 the full width fairway so that you could play right toward the water.  Gary P would have had a tight lie in the fairway and not behind trees back in '79(?)[size=78%]

[/size]It looks as though the course is waiting for Hanse's plan to be implemented.  Hopefully the plan will be tweaked and resold to the members, if only to widen the fairways and remove the space trees.[size=78%]

[/size]Any others see play yesterday? and notice the conditions?[size=78%]
[/size]Anthony[size=78%]

Tom_Doak

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Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2016, 03:23:59 PM »
It just amazes me that the 17th at Oakland Hills is being played at 237 yards, uphill to that green with the bunkers all across the front of it.  If you'd have told me that it would look like that, when I first saw it in 1980, I'd have said you were insane.

Brent Carlson

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Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2016, 11:14:31 PM »
I appreciate the observations Anthony.  It would be a great event to attend.


You make a good point regarding the spruces.  To me they do not fit the course aesthetically.  Blue Spruce is not native to the eastern US. White Pine would make sense as a replacement.  For one they are native (state tree) of Michigan.  Plus they are more beautiful and you can actually play under them as the grow older.


Here's hoping the membership adopts your viewpoint on restoration.  The course holds so much potential.  This is not a knock on Jones as he was contracted to increase difficulty, which brings me to my next question.  How do you restore the width and bunkering while maintaining enough challenge to hold another Open?  Surely bunkers will have to be moved further down the fairway.  Perhaps an architect will chime in.


Tom - do you feel the insanity is the length or the complete fronting by the bunkers?  I was looking at the original Ross drawings and there was a small center bunker but it looks like the fairway melded into the green.  I somehow cannot even picture what that would look like.


Cheers

Jeff Bergeron

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Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2016, 11:27:56 PM »
It just amazes me that the 17th at Oakland Hills is being played at 237 yards, uphill to that green with the bunkers all across the front of it.  If you'd have told me that it would look like that, when I first saw it in 1980, I'd have said you were insane.


The 15 year old I hosted this week hit a 4 iron to 17 and just missed his 15 footer This is the world we live in in 2016. He birdied 9,10, 15, and 16. You cannot contain these players.

Matthew Essig

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Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2016, 07:04:21 PM »
It just amazes me that the 17th at Oakland Hills is being played at 237 yards, uphill to that green with the bunkers all across the front of it.  If you'd have told me that it would look like that, when I first saw it in 1980, I'd have said you were insane.


The 15 year old I hosted this week hit a 4 iron to 17 and just missed his 15 footer This is the world we live in in 2016. He birdied 9,10, 15, and 16. You cannot contain these players.


A 15-year-old hit a 4 iron 237 yards uphill?


Yeah, no containing at all.  :o
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 05:27:15 PM by Matthew Essig »
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2016, 10:06:59 PM »
It just amazes me that the 17th at Oakland Hills is being played at 237 yards, uphill to that green with the bunkers all across the front of it.  If you'd have told me that it would look like that, when I first saw it in 1980, I'd have said you were insane.


The 15 year old I hosted this week hit a 4 iron to 17 and just missed his 15 footer This is the world we live in in 2016. He birdied 9,10, 15, and 16. You cannot contain these players.


I saw players this afternoon hitting driver to 17.


I was there in the early afternoon today. I certainly didn't think the course looked tired but I don't know what that means. It was lush and very green except for select areas with tall fescue type grasses. I saw no brown otherwise. The course was playing very soft and the rough was lush. US Open type conditions.


I watched the 7th hole for a while and most players played short of the pond. Those who missed in the rough short of the pond had little to no chance of hitting the green. Plus the pin was in the narrow front of the green. One player I saw chose to hit to the 2nd fairway to make sure he was on short grass. Interesting tactic as it offered a tiny landing area for the approach. He missed short, was above the pin with his third and 2 putted to lose the hole.


What is striking about OH South is the property and the routing. Mr. Doak spoke of this in his Confidential Guide. Whether or not you like the current configuration the property has a lot of contour and Ross used it perfectly. The fairways bunkers are as deep and penal as ever.

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2016, 10:18:23 PM »
Here are a few iPhone pics I took today.


18th green from the left side:





Ninth hole from behind the green. They were playing from a very forward tee and the pin was right in front of a backstop.





Second green from right side. The pin was right on top of a huge slope. Both players in this group flew it to the pin and it sucked back to where they are putting in this picture, about 25 feet below the hole.





Looking back toward the tee from right of the 7th green.





Right side fairway bunker on 8, a par 5 playing as par 4 this week





Approach to the 8th green







JStewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2016, 10:10:12 AM »
It's too bad rain has (again) plagued an OHCC event. The course has been neutered a bit as it was for the '96 Open and '08 PGA.

Josh Stevens

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Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2016, 07:40:24 PM »
Oh dear, look at all that long grass .  So depressing

Mike Schott

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Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2016, 09:45:44 PM »
Oh dear, look at all that long grass .  So depressing


I agree, from being there yesterday before the rain I'd say the rough was about 6" deep though much of it was trampled. Still, a 1/2 stroke penalty in general.


I'm not sure what to expect though. It's a USGA event and it's Oakland Hills. The course is designed to be penal. Deep fairway bunkers, tough greens and deep rough. It's a bit short for the modern player and these kids would eat it up and aim to miss the bunkers, taking away the course's main penalties without deep rough. Trees are rarely in play off the tee.


A Marshall on the first fairway told me some players were blowing it past the fairway bunkers which are about 290-330 from the back tees. Of course they have to hit the fairway for this to mean anything so with minimal rough it would be a cakewalk with wedge in hand.

KMcKeown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2016, 11:15:26 PM »
I'm disappointed to see the fairways so soft. Obviously it's beyond their control as last Summer they were some of the fastest and firmest I've played on. They reminded me of Southern Hills when it's tuned up, LA North and Merion.

I personally enjoyed the course and like the contrast of playing thee and then seeing the beauty of Crystal Downs 4 hours North. Amazing how different they can be but still both thought of in such high regard. Crystal had virtually no rough, more and dramatic greens which is saying a lot. Both are top notch.

I like having the diversity in courses we play. I hope they don't burn the course up, remove the rough and pretend it's a sand based design.

Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2016, 01:14:24 AM »
It's too bad rain has (again) plagued an OHCC event. The course has been neutered a bit as it was for the '96 Open and '08 PGA.


JStewart,


I know there was some rain at the '08 PGA, but was it really neutered?  Padraig won at -3.  That was the highest to par since Larry Nelson at -1 in 1987.  BTW looks like more precipitation in the forecast.   :P

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2016, 05:26:27 PM »
Very exciting quarterfinals today. In particular the Carlson/Meyer match.


I like that they moved up the tee on 16 to make it a short par 4 (303 yards).

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2016, 05:26:58 PM »
Interesting to see the USGA move the tee way up on 16 to entice the players to go for it.

BCowan

Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2016, 05:52:11 PM »
I just saw a trolley at Oakland Hills!  :o :o

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2016, 06:14:07 PM »
I've seen two trolley users.

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2016, 06:20:59 PM »
I don't understand why these guys wear trousers/pants when they could wear shorts. Can someone explain this?

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2016, 07:27:38 PM »
I don't understand why these guys wear trousers/pants when they could wear shorts. Can someone explain this?

Agree. It's in the 80's and humid in the area.

BCowan

Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2016, 08:04:08 PM »
Wealthiest man on the property that happens to be a caddie too

« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 08:06:36 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

David_Tepper

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Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2016, 08:49:34 PM »
"I just saw a trolley at Oakland Hills!"  "I've seen two trolley users."

Brian H. & Ben C. -

Prior to the USGA 4-Ball held on the OC Lake Course in May of last year, trolleys were not permitted on the Lake. Imagine my surprise when I turned on the TV to watch the event and saw several competitors pushing their 3-wheelers down the fairways. 

The good news is that, as of this year, trolleys are indeed permitted on the Lake. If they are suitable for a USGA championship, they must certainly be suitable for the OC members.

The Oakland Hills members have reason to live in hope.

DT
 
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 10:14:15 AM by David_Tepper »

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2016, 09:00:33 PM »
I agree, it was great to watch today and the golf was fantastic.  One thing that stood out to me: several times they showed the hole in reverse from a camera behind the green with a panned out shot.  It was striking how narrow the fairways looked.  It looked like there was tons of rough between the edge of the fairway and the tree line on a few holes.  It's a shame it wasn't set up wider giving players more options to find the best angle of approach.

Brent Carlson

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Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2016, 12:09:17 AM »
Well, what are everyone's thoughts?  For Oakland Hills' next US Open would you rather see it play in its current condition with narrow fairways and pinched landing areas?  Or would you rather see it restored to the original Ross with much wider fairways and more varied bunkering?  I assume the scoring would be much better on the Ross version.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 12:18:04 AM by Brent Carlson »

BCowan

Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2016, 09:01:41 AM »
Brent,  Restored to Ross I'd prefer.  However I think Mother Nature determines score more then if they do reno/resto.  Hosting Majors ruins great courses IMO.  I'd rather someone buy Shepard's Hollow and build a ''Erin Hills'' quality of course out of it to host majors at, assuming the Auto industry regains desire to sponsor down the road.  Just my $.02

Brent Carlson

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Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2016, 10:26:17 AM »
Good point on Mother Nature Ben. 

Looks like OH South is tipped out for the matches today.  Let's see if it continues to be a birdie fest.

I do feel like the club is proud of its resistance to scoring - The Monster - which is perhaps why the the initial restoration vote failed.  Looking at the old plans there was a lot of width, and a restoration would make most GCAers very happy. 

Dan Ackerberg

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Re: Oakland Hills Observations at the US AM
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2016, 10:34:39 AM »

Here are my best pics from the round of 64 on Wed.  Was impressed with the greens (as expected), but also in the varied way the USGA is setting up the course (e.g. driveable 16 yesterday, lots of yardage changes on the par 3s)


6th tee (note that one of the semifinalists is in the photo)


https://sites.google.com/site/danielackerbergshomepage/IMG_20160817_114022387.jpg?attredirects=0


11th fairway (my fav viewing spot was the hill to the left of the 11th green.  Great overhead views of 11 green and the tee shot on 9)


https://sites.google.com/site/danielackerbergshomepage/IMG_20160817_133826225_HDR.jpg?attredirects=0


14th green


https://sites.google.com/site/danielackerbergshomepage/IMG_20160817_120920014.jpg?attredirects=0


13th behind green (nice shot to 2 ft :) )


https://sites.google.com/site/danielackerbergshomepage/IMG_20160817_123510602.jpg?attredirects=0
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 10:40:37 AM by Dan Ackerberg »