News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Revisiting PGA - When and Where
« on: August 15, 2016, 12:59:09 PM »
Hello,


I was going to add to the thread of August 4, but thought a new thread was in order to fully flesh this out among interested parties (re: us geeks who probably should be doing something else with 70% of their time spent on this and here).


Preamble: I know the PGA is not going to put 60 point headlines announcing our findings...I know there are commercial and big money interests of which I don't know the details, and probably neither does anyone else...I know I (or you) will move millions of dollars around in a single sentence to promote our views...I know that what we might propose will not be a magic elixir to cure all ills and restore competitive golf to some lofty position we think it should have or has lost....So, let's just pretend that it is what it is, an ideal fantasy of what the world should be.


1. The American PGA tournament should be moved permanently to May, and the Players Championship moved back to the end of March, at the termination of the "Florida" swing, where it generally has served as logical geographical end point.


a. The environmental argument is that in the US, May is statistically (rainfall, average temp, long daylight) the most temperate month in the most total regions of the 48 contiguous US states and therefore permits the largest scope of choices for where to place the tournament with a reasonable expectation of good conditions. It is also "late" enough in the almost every US growing season whereby any region/course selected can be well-prepared for championship conditions, especially when a major tournament now details these things for 3+ years.


b. the contextual argument, as important as any, is to cluster the modern Grand Slam in a period when interest in golf is at its zenith, when an American audience has begun to play themselves, and to re-cast the (near-impossible) Grand slam chase as is the Triple Crown in horse racing. Instead of the advertising of "Golf's last chance for glory" there would be a laser beam on the Masters winner and quickly gratified answers about the state of the world's best players in any given year. This monthly symmetrical heartbeat (middle of April, middle of May, middle of June, middle of July) would put a real pulse to the major championship season, and build quite briskly out of the Hawaii>West Coast>Florida tournaments that shake off the snow once football is winding down and Premier League is on weekend mornings over here.


c. In that pulse, I think the Open championship is a much better place to end the "Major" championship season, a much better place for a popular leading golfer to rescue a major from a mediocre season, or a medicore career, a much better place for an older golfer, a Norman, a Watson, a Clarke, a Mickelson to drink from the fountain of youth...a much better place for an unknown to either announce his entry into the mix, to secure his one moment in the sun, or to confound the public regard (like Daly -- who, we forget, was akin to "Beef" winning at Troon, when he won at St. Andrews in 1995, which was one of the amazing weeks of golf I can remember)And finally, wouldn't it be an amazing place to crown a grand slam champion. If such things should happen, isn't it somehow "right" that they happen on the most ancient and oft-implacable grounds and with the broadest field as there are in the game?


d. And in the other ventricle, the US Open would be rightfully placed as the 3rd hurdle in the golf season...the hardest manufactured test (to a 280 standard) should be the brute a golfer should have to pass...if they didn't make hay before here, tyhis is now place to do it...if they have had a good season, they can make it a great one, and a great one made historic (like Spieth last year), and of course if someone should have won the first two majors...a Goliath before you get to go overseas and perhaps make it immortal.


2. The American PGA championship should be moved to that roster of top courses which have FACILITY to host a massive event and which are within easy reach of population centers (and/or destination sites until themselves).


a. Here, I'm talking Bethpage, Torrey Pines, Pinehurst, PGA National, off the top of my head. As these names imply, I'm also thinking the tournament ought to glom up the best public/municipal facilities in this regard and phase out the private courses as best they can. I'll take your word for it as to which other facilities fit this description, but even at 36 holes, Baltusrol proved its no match for fiscal strength and accommodation to maximum people for massive revenues as is something almost as close to NYC like Bethpage. These neighborhood courses are already bursting at the seams for the USGA's facility needs. As much as I hate the "roman" NY crowds and shit shows like Phoenix, the PGA should be doubling on the value of now going second and have the biggest crowds of the year on big, big places where attendance records can always be broken. I think the time for old-time neighborhood courses is nearing an end, time to put on a new show, the second act, on courses people can play.


b. I'm not so sure what would be involved, but perhaps the PGA would be interested in building a few select PGA National facilities near such population centers, whereby this (and their club pro championships and top regional/sectional events) are played. A wonderful thing to build on if you ask me...what could be better than having four or five wonderful courses where your home pro can send you when you're out of town, or on a golf trip, or that's available for resort/daily fee play in season.


3. The PGA should definitely NOT go back to match play, whether it was moved to May or not.


a. match play is too capricious because there is no way to accurately seed a bracket of so many golfers. There is far too little reward for being a top seed (by dint of rankings or qualifications) as there is for being marginally within the bracket. If a player has earned a top seed, there should be no way Glenn Day should gets to eliminate Jason Day, because the world #1 had a few poor swings and a 3 putt in his first six turn. Maybe if they gave Jason a +3 start for his earned seed, then we could talk.


b. And on the audience/viewership/interest note, such early undeserved eliminations foil the beginning, middle and end of the tournament, when 4 A listers are out on Wednesday and by Saturday you know your winner is going to be either Paul Casey, Vaughan Taylor, Colt Knost and if you're lucky, Sergio Garcia, but prolly' Brooks Kopeka.


c. Third, the other three majors are medal competitions and so the nature of the task must be according. It's the long slow grind of 16 rounds on 4 wildly different top courses, with the history of championship golf always staring you in the face. To render one at match play, just makes no sense now. what's the upside?


d. At the same time, I definitely think the Fed Ex cup SHOULD be incorporating a match play element to the whole shebang. my notions of how this who shape are subjective and first-glance, no point sharing them here in digression.


A'right...Emperor Pro VK has dispensed his annual address on the topic...Parliament? Act.


cheers
vk
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 01:28:10 PM by V. Kmetz »
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Revisiting PGA - When and Where
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2016, 01:39:53 PM »
So you're basically saying that the PGA season will start when 50% of golfers can't even pick up a club, and effectively end in early June, since there really aren't any tournaments of note after that until you get to the Fedex Cup at the end of August.  So that's basically 2 months of exciting televised golf when people are out buying golf products.  What a marketer's nightmare.   


I think your goal of cramming all of the majors together is the opposite of the Tour's goal, which is to extend the season as long as possible.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Revisiting PGA - When and Where
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2016, 04:03:27 PM »
SB,


I'm not sure if you're first distinguishing between PGA of America and the Tour... i'm not following people "out buying golf products" I don't know anyone whose buying golf products that interferes with their watching golf on TV or attending...


But even so... it already begins when 50% can't pick up a club, and the major season will be right in the midst of their interest.


cheers
vk

"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Revisiting PGA - When and Where
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2016, 04:39:59 PM »
I would rather it move to October and the Fed Ex and Ryder/Presidents Cup move up a couple weeks. October is beautiful and temperate across most of the U.S.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Revisiting PGA - When and Where
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2016, 06:52:40 PM »
I would rather it move to October and the Fed Ex and Ryder/Presidents Cup move up a couple weeks. October is beautiful and temperate across most of the U.S.


Yes, but football is on TV in October.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Revisiting PGA - When and Where
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2016, 07:04:18 PM »

3a. match play is too capricious because there is no way to accurately seed a bracket of so many golfers. There is far too little reward for being a top seed (by dint of rankings or qualifications) as there is for being marginally within the bracket. If a player has earned a top seed, there should be no way Glenn Day should gets to eliminate Jason Day, because the world #1 had a few poor swings and a 3 putt in his first six turn. Maybe if they gave Jason a +3 start for his earned seed, then we could talk.



The ghosts of Bobby Jones and Walter Hagen shall haunt you forevermore for this post.  Hopefully it does not involve syringomyelia.


If Glenn Day beats Jason Day head to head, better luck next year, Jason.

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Revisiting PGA - When and Where
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2016, 08:02:35 PM »
This is my realistic dream plan.

-Leave the Players in May. I think the PGA Tour likes how the course plays for their flagship event in May (and probably the fans, too.)

-Switch the WGC Match Play and PGA on the calendar. Have it the weekend before March Madness begins. It has little to compete with. The PGA in March allows for a southern Major. From the Carolinas to California, with Florida and Texas in between. Imagine a PGA at TPC Scottsdale. Now THAT would give the tournament its own flavor. The Match Play in August, or July for Olympic years, is more flexible than a major. It has hopped around the calendar the last couple years, it still can for the Olympics. It also opens up a whole new slate of courses it could go to.


-The PGA is then the first major of the year. So what. The Masters is the Masters. The course is the same. The weather is the same. The aesthetics are the same. If people want to still use the Masters as "an indicator of spring," this is unaffected. The Masters won't be affected if it isn't the first major of the year, IMO; however, I think the PGA would receive a boost.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 09:27:22 PM by Matthew Essig »
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Revisiting PGA - When and Where
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2016, 08:57:33 PM »
My dream plan -


The US PGA ceases to be a major and a new Global Open is created that moves around the world to countries other than the US and the UK (I could see it being played on non-links courses in the UK as these are not eligible to host The Open).  The event could be held in Australia, SA, Canada, Japan, South America, etc.


It is not tenable that 3 of 4 major championships are in the US, that will become even more so if the Olympics initiative suceeds in growing the game.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Revisiting PGA - When and Where
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2016, 07:06:58 AM »


The ghosts of Bobby Jones and Walter Hagen shall haunt you forevermore for this post.  Hopefully it does not involve syringomyelia.


If Glenn Day beats Jason Day head to head, better luck next year, Jason.


AHA! I have you now Mr. Doak; as this post reveals that you too believe that match play measures fortune more than skill...because it's "better luck next year" for the more skilled, more proven opponent if that round/day doesn't endorse him as such...

What are we really saying when we're having an annual championship at match play? We going to see who's the best, or the best that round/day/week/tournament? I know a medal play championship fails most of that too, but at least it's an extended test, that doesn't (have to) end because you sucked for 5 holes, or a guy you score 3 shots a round better than, found himself on that day.

I don't think that's anyway to determine what I wish to see from an annual championship of the best professional golfers of the world.

I can accept it in a Ryder Cup or any kind of team match, because the field is small, the prize is different, and from a spectating perspective, the matches pit the best against the best (no Glenn Days). Plus the results of one match, only earn or detract one match from a series and so is not nearly as damning or determining that Jason Day was not good enough for six or seven holes...It's not "better luck next year"...it's go get em' tomorrow or root for your teammates to compensate.

Jones and Sarazen ARE legendary and amazing because they prevailed so often (with shorter fields of less-diffuse character) under these terms, they would get what I'm talking about. And, in that era, they saw and knew each other much more regularly, looked each other in the eye, the golf world was more personal...more befitting of a match champion on classic courses largely designed with that form of play (and not a number) in their zeitgeist

And to further digress to an old war horse of mine, it follows that a design termed a "match play" course (as opposed to a "medal" play course) more comports with that essence...blind shots, massive green contours, windy sites, arcane hazards... all perfectly welcome at course designed as a match venue first...

Stepping back, it makes me regard the RTJ digression (hard par/easy bogey, penalty abutting the large, multi-sectioned green, course beautiful, utilitarian multi-tees) as a unique fill of the post-War, post Golden age vacuum and better equipment...a movement mitigated (if not reversed) organically by many of the name architects of today.

Holy digressions, BatBoard...

cheers
vk
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 07:48:48 AM by V. Kmetz »
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Revisiting PGA - When and Where
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2016, 07:53:55 AM »
VK


You are only arguing over the length of an event.  Many would say that 144 holes is better than 72 if we really want to see the best golfer win.  A line has to be drawn somewhere and using matchplay is a valid line...especially if medal is used to qualify for matchplay.  There is certainly the opportunity for 36 hole matches and/or two matches in a day...which tests endurance and fitness.  To me, its the best of both worlds. 


Okay, you don't like matchplay to determine a major champion, but I do like the idea....if only to differentiate the PGA from the other majors.  Lots of years the PGA is interchangable with the US Open...just a different organization in charge. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Revisiting PGA - When and Where
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2016, 09:30:40 AM »


The ghosts of Bobby Jones and Walter Hagen shall haunt you forevermore for this post.  Hopefully it does not involve syringomyelia.


If Glenn Day beats Jason Day head to head, better luck next year, Jason.


AHA! I have you now Mr. Doak; as this post reveals that you too believe that match play measures fortune more than skill...because it's "better luck next year" for the more skilled, more proven opponent if that round/day doesn't endorse him as such...



VK:


Match play measures your ability to DEAL WITH FORTUNE, and overcome an opponent who is either lucky or playing out of his mind.  Do you not think that's valid?


The idea that 72-hole stroke play events determine the "true champion" is ridiculous.  As Sean says, you can easily move the goal posts to 144 holes, or whatever.  And as we all know, play the same 72-hole event the next week on the same course, and a different guy will probably win.  Golf is capricious, and you can only pretend to make it less so.  You might as well award the gold medal to the guy who wins the Vardon Trophy for the lowest stroke average over the entire year, and stop putting so much stock in individual, 72-hole events.


Head to head competition is where it's at.  The last round of these Olympics WAS essentially a match between Rose and Stenson, who had already cleared themselves from the rest of the field.  But of course we can't do match play, because TV.  Incidentally, if you'd guaranteed the TV network a Rose-Stenson final two months ago, they'd probably have cringed, because neither is American; but now it's the best thing ever.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Revisiting PGA - When and Where
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2016, 11:37:15 AM »


VK:


Match play measures your ability to DEAL WITH FORTUNE, and overcome an opponent who is either lucky or playing out of his mind. Do you not think that's valid? Of course I do, and I go farther to say that it also  measures that "ability" to DEAL more than it measures any technical skill or force of judgment.


The idea that 72-hole stroke play events determine the "true champion" is ridiculous. Hold on, I'm not saying that match play is false, I'm saying that medal play is "truER" to determine an annual world class champion of something. That's not in a vacuum either...


As Sean says, you can easily move the goal posts to 144 holes, or whatever.  ...like right here, for could we also not call 18 holes a round of golf, as we do only in the last 150 year third of the sport? But we do, and that 72 hole length has been developed organically and may develop organically more still. I am not just "arguing about the length of the tournament," (as SA put it), I'm talking about the maximum ability for the best players to show themselves as we can give them in a reasonable time of what we commonly know as a tournament week.  I didn't just make it up the length or put special reverence on 72 holes, we all did..slowly.


And as we all know, play the same 72-hole event the next week on the same course, and a different guy will probably win.  That is too true to refute week in and week out (Hell, Jim Furyk admitted he was at first disappointed to have just made the cut at Hartford because he wished to rest from the short Majors weeks, and then shot 58 proves that) ...except for those immortal players who seem to own multiple places or repeatedly perform on what are otherwise tough venues. How many times did Woods win at Bay Hill, Firestone, Muirfield, Torrey (including an Open), major repeats at Medinah and St. Andrews...Hogan's Alley, his tackling of Oakland Hills, Carnoustie, Merion. When the greats and the tops and upper echelon are on their game, they win at medal, they win everywhere, they repeat, and it's not luck. Phil has had runs, and Els has had runs, and Singh has had runs, Spieth, McIlroy, stenson (now), even Tom Lehman and Kenny Perry have had runs where people couldn't touch them. They weren't going to lose, no matter what was thrown at them from the leaderboard, a different guy wasn't going to win there if you teed it up the next week fresh. I'd like an annual elite champion to measured by those means.


[size=78%]Golf is capricious, and you can only pretend to make it less so.  No argument here, but does that mean it's a game of chance, like craps, but we learn better than one another about how to throw the dice and how to place bets accordingly? And as to the extent of "capricousness" it shouldn't matter the extent of it, if everyone has to do it?[/size]


Head to head competition is where it's at.  It's in other places too though my man. In a game like golf, unique among the ball and stick games in that the ball is NOT competitively vied for, there is also the beauty of perfection of demonstrating all the talents (and yes, the vagaries of golf's capriciousness and manufacture) and all the skills of the game, as the best can always do over the big-field, fundamental tournaments in the fewest strokes of anyone. In this lion's half of the competition, the golfer tacking whatever has been laid out in the lowest number, over four sails of the prepared waters, is a lot like the gymnast who doesn't give a shit about the girl from Denmark and is just trying to nail her routine dead solid perfect...I saw Simone Biles' floor routine 4x in the last weeks, amazing and amazinger each and every time. But she would be doing that now-legendary routine if the Russian performed nude, her competition has no bearing on how great a gymnast she is, except as they set some new standards for her to meet and exceed over a period of months, years and eras.


The last round of these Olympics WAS essentially a match between Rose and Stenson, who had already cleared themselves from the rest of the field.  But it wasn't though, because if one or the other had made an 8 someplace earlier, instead of just losing a hole, they were done...match over...and they were even in the position to have "essentially a match" because two world-class players, recent major champions rose above four days worth of golf...cream rose, good players not up to the task, fell off, a feature on the Argentinian team's quest for bronze is aired, people watched. Would that have happened if it was a gold medal match between Soren Kjeldsen and Anibir Lahiri, between Patrick Reed and Scott Hend? Thank god it was Rose and Stenson.




cheers
vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back