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BCowan

Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #100 on: August 31, 2016, 10:22:01 AM »

That makes absolutely no sense at all. 

Ben, this line really resonated with me. I had the same thought myself the entire time I was reading your post.


Don't hold it against Josh, Mark, and others that they don't understand you. They're all hampered by their lack of real-world experience, as you note, but also by the fact that they all primarily speak English and therefore whatever language it is that you're typing in is, at best, a second language for them.

Jason,

   I'm not surprised that nothing i say makes sense to you.  I actually am relieved.  You know in your gut I'm right, you just can't admit it  ;) .  Why did you quit Clovernook? 

BCowan

Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #101 on: August 31, 2016, 10:26:50 AM »
Not sure why Ben starts threads as in his mind he already has all the answers.

Let's see Peter Pallotta, Tom Doak, Alex Miller, Jim Franklin, Dave Doxy, Tim Pitner, and Thomas Dai just to name a few commented and made constructive posts.  I hardly have all the answers, I just hate naysayers and threadjackers who prevent others from continuing to post and provide good/great examples.  As Ran said, if you don't like a thread don't read it and go to another. 

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #102 on: August 31, 2016, 10:31:36 AM »
Clearly Ran is in it for the clicks! ;D

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #103 on: August 31, 2016, 10:41:35 AM »
I left Clovernook because I travel too much to justify the cost of a local club that I rarely have time to use right now. In other words, I did the same type of rudimentary cost/benefit analysis that any course owner of a "Doak 3" would do if deciding on a renovation to take my course to a "Doak 5." Like that course owner, I realized that the payoff wasn't worth the investment.


We're five pages in and you still haven't posted a "good/great example" of a Doak 3 that could become a Doak 5 with a renovation budget of $1.2 million or less. Don't get too frustrated with the threadjackers. They're the only reason your ludicrous premise is still getting views.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #104 on: August 31, 2016, 10:48:28 AM »
I left Clovernook because I travel too much to justify the cost of a local club that I rarely have time to use right now. In other words, I did the same type of rudimentary cost/benefit analysis that any course owner of a "Doak 3" would do if deciding on a renovation to take my course to a "Doak 5." Like that course owner, I realized that the payoff wasn't worth the investment.


We're five pages in and you still haven't posted a "good/great example" of a Doak 3 that could become a Doak 5 with a renovation budget of $1.2 million or less. Don't get too frustrated with the threadjackers. They're the only reason your ludicrous premise is still getting views.

The 1.2 number was increased to option b.  I know you have difficulty following along.  No this thread received many clicks prior to your simple minded fraters started posting.  Some have posted that they agree it could be done for up to 1.2 given the land was good. 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 10:54:39 AM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

BCowan

Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #105 on: August 31, 2016, 10:50:10 AM »
Clearly Ran is in it for the clicks! ;D

I thought he just wanted to keep his Chicago options open.  I've enjoyed your trip thread.  Hoping for a jkava photo with him and a trolley  ;D

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #106 on: August 31, 2016, 11:06:56 AM »

You know in your gut I'm right


In our guts we know you're nuts.




JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #107 on: August 31, 2016, 11:18:44 AM »

You know in your gut I'm right


In our guts we know you're nuts.

good use of the apostrophe
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

BCowan

Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #108 on: August 31, 2016, 11:32:58 AM »

You know in your gut I'm right


In our guts we know you're nuts.

  They told Mike K that he was nuts for investing in Bandon.  You probably haven't played a public course under $40 in 20 years.  I can't help it you're a tool

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #109 on: August 31, 2016, 11:40:37 AM »

You know in your gut I'm right


In our guts we know you're nuts.

  They told Mike K that he was nuts for investing in Bandon.  You probably haven't played a public course under $40 in 20 years.  I can't help it you're a tool

You know I was describing you to someone the other day and Mike Keiser is the EXACT analog I used. 
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

BCowan

Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #110 on: August 31, 2016, 11:46:53 AM »
Might be your best post this year  ;)

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #111 on: August 31, 2016, 11:54:05 AM »

You know in your gut I'm right


In our guts we know you're nuts.

  They told Mike K that he was nuts for investing in Bandon.  You probably haven't played a public course under $40 in 20 years.  I can't help it you're a tool

This is hilarious...and so off the mark...

Pritchett was just recommending a few courses to me the other day.  They included 3 munis whose weekend rates were $25, $22, and $37.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 12:00:41 PM by Brian Finn »
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #112 on: August 31, 2016, 11:57:05 AM »
Gents;  It really isn't my job but as a long time participant I respectfully suggest that everyone should take a deep breath, step away from their keyboards and think about this and similar threads.  This type of discourse is what ultimately drives those who are interested in focused discussion about our mutual interest away from the site.  I understand that a number of us think that many of Ben's post are, for want of a better term, simplistic in their analyses.  I also understand that, for a variety of reasons, some of us have developed a personal dislike for Ben.  I suggest that the best way to reflect those views is to ignore his posts or, if you must respond, a brief focused response and no more.  Sinking to the level of sophomoric personal invective is a waste of time and reflects poorly on each of you and on the site.

Ben, I believe you are sincere in your interest in the topic.  My response to this thread was an attempt to be constructive.  However, it is not coincidental that there are so many who react to your threads in such a negative manner.  Your overly defensive responses which, when questioned, tend to rely upon information from unnamed sources only invite more attacks.  Your resort to insult, even if you do not always start the fight, continues the spiral away from intelligent discourse.  So while I can't endorse the personal attacks, even when they emanate from some of my friends, I suggest that you consider more carefully your approach to criticism.  This is a discussion forum.  Those who participate should expect to be challenged and should be prepared to respond or to sit back and learn from the criticism.  Candidly, reading this thread takes me back to the playground in about the 8th grade and I fear the insults there were more effective.

In any event, I always believed that Ran created this site or tree house as a gathering place for those interested in GCA to meet and discuss the topic in a collegial manner.  Of course, feelings can occasionally run hot but it is a gathering place for sharing and learning.  Many of us, myself included, have made good friends here.  Let's not ruin a good thing.  We have already lost a number of excellent posters and others contribute less frequently in part because of the changing atmosphere.  Argue and disagree; sure.  But what is happening here is out of bounds (or in deference to Peter, Ian and our other Canadian friends, offsides).  This behavior is becoming too commonplace and should end.

Sorry for the rant.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #113 on: August 31, 2016, 12:07:29 PM »
Shel,


You are spot on with your post and as usual a clear and eloquent voice of reason.  I certainly have no personal dislike of Ben, but do find his "know it all" attitude somewhat off-putting.  Hopefully we can all do a better job at fostering a better discourse of GCA in the future.  I will endeavor to do my part starting now.


Mark


Ben-Hope we can meet on the course one day and discuss archie in person. 








BCowan

Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #114 on: August 31, 2016, 12:25:41 PM »
Shel,

   I agree with some of your opening paragraph.  Do you think calling my ideas simplistic is appropriate?  I have had many people of much higher stature hold my opinion rather high.  I don't worry Shel about the riff raff's opinion of me, I have a lot of great friends and I don't need a GCA frat to defend me.  Of course I never start the personal attacks.  I couldn't agree more as Ran stated if you don't like or agree with a thread to skip it.  Your prior post was constructive and I asked you to share what you learned from prior meetings.  Your post was constructive unlike your friends who started the whole de-railing of the thread.  As he did on Geoff's website, which no longer allows comments.  Grown men acting like 8th graders couldn't agree more.  I am overly defensive on purpose Shel, I can play dumb with the best of them.  Shel, I named Course and private information in the past, almost cost me friendships and could have ended in a lawsuit worst case scenerio.  I have to protect many of my friends for things on here that could get them fired, you would be the last person on here I'd thought I would need to explain this with.  I also don't share information with people I'm not friends with.  Shel, if you go back to mid way through this thread you can see who started the insults.  I ignore them from time to time, but sometimes I engage.  It's sad some of us protect our friends and others defend their access hosts.  The difference is I don't lay down for anyone, it's a character trait that has gotten me far in life.  I don't have a problem with criticism, you have to understand that I have an abrasive side, but we are all flawed.  The problem is when someone is challenged like myself and I do deliver with names people get offended.  Mr Doxey said nobody makes money on F&B, and I provided him with a place that does.  Lastly I think that you should talk to some of your friends about following the Golden Rule.  Notice how 95% of my thread pertain to Golf Architecture.  I know you notice that it is the same repeat offenders that post on here.  I can tell you that there are few people that do not post on here and think that there is too many idiots on here.  I have made some of my best friends on this site and encourage them to post on here, but they won't.  Do you notice that the same thread jackers never offer a detailed rebuttal?  We have lost a lot of great posters way before I joined this site, so I hope you aren't blaming me for that. 

   Anyway, I would like for this thread to turn back to the folks that have an interest in this subject.  If one doesn't, don't post.  Peter actually agreed with me on this thread, so that must make him simple minded and nuts.  Even if he didn't he always writes a thoughtful post giving reasons why he doesn't agree, which is what is missing on here. 



SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #115 on: August 31, 2016, 12:31:59 PM »
Ben;  I will take my own advice and sign off.  I will leave others to decide the value of my remarks.  I thought carefully about what I said and I will leave it at that.

BCowan

Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #116 on: August 31, 2016, 12:35:05 PM »
Shel,

   Your post was good, which i stated.  I'd wish for you to share some of the ideas in your Chicago meetings of prior gatherings.  You do a lot for the game of golf and your heart seems to be in the right place. 

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #117 on: August 31, 2016, 12:36:46 PM »
Shel,

   I agree with some of your opening paragraph.  Do you think calling my ideas simplistic is appropriate?  I have had many people of much higher stature hold my opinion rather high.


Ben,


There are few people on GCA or in the "real world" whom I hold their opinions higher than Shelly's. He is a class act and he tried to give you good advice that you simply could not comprehend.
H.P.S.

BCowan

Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #118 on: August 31, 2016, 12:47:34 PM »
Pat,
 
    I really don't need any advice from Shel or yourself.  I have gotten along very well in my life and especially in the game of golf.  I know you are a Chicago boy and like to protect your own.  Many on here kiss up to people with titles by there name, I treat everyone the same regardless of their lot in life.  I can comprehend Shel very well and I can also point out when and where I disagree with him. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #119 on: September 01, 2016, 01:30:02 PM »
I know TD has panned it before, but Indian Canyon in Spokane, WA is the one course that would benefit the most from something like this.


Its got a good routing and a ton of interesting land movement.  With some tree removal, fairway bunkering, a few new tees, and updated mowing lines the place would really sparkle!
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 01:34:52 PM by Kalen Braley »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #120 on: September 01, 2016, 03:31:40 PM »
Having read thru this entire 5 pages, something that seems a bit lost is...


I don't think the suggestion is that All 3s could transform to a 5.  The emphasis should be some specific examples could accomplish such.  Off the top of my head, of the dozens of 3s I've played, only 1 came to mind.  But I'm sure a few more would fit the bill with a closer look.


But in the OP, i think something like this is feasible, given its the right course, with the right conditions to spruce up.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #121 on: September 01, 2016, 04:42:57 PM »
I think the central premise of this thread (or what I surmise it to be...) is a pretty good one, and Kalen touches on it in his responses (and gives a good example in Indian Canyon, by all reports a really interesting course that architecturally could be considerably improved with some modest and thoughtful expenses).


My experience in Wisconsin might be relevant here, in that the complete opposite of what Ben suggests has happened. Twenty-five years ago, Wisconsin had virtually nothing in the way of high-end offerings. Now it's a virtual mecca of well-regarded (by most...) golf destinations: the four courses of Kohler, Erin Hills, a Jack Nicklaus signature course, a renovated and much-improved SentryWorld, and two (perhaps more) Sand Valley courses by Mr. Bandon.


Does visitor traffic account for a lot of this? Sure, probably...but one can't help but think that golfers in this state have grown to acknowledge and admire better golf architecture, and support it. Regardless of one's particular view about the merits of, say, Whistling Straits, there's little doubt that golfers here have much better access to quality architecture than a generation ago.


But it's costly golf, and one that I also suspect has sapped growth from some of the 3s of the world (or, the state). And that's been my experience -- most courses here have simply adopted a go-along-to-get-along philosophy, it seems, and are content to keep offering what they do, with little effort to improve their courses. Meanwhile, deep-pocketed folks are buying up land to fulfill their personal fantasies (Ballybunion by the lake, Pine Valley a short drive from Chicago), and have it supported by charging deep 3-figure fees for a round of golf.


Isn't there some kind of middle ground here -- a 3 that with some appropriate, fairly modest, but thoughtful renovations, could be turned into a 5? If if it's good for the game to add the Sand Valleys of the world (which draws near-unanimous hosannas around here), isn't there also room for some 3s to become 5s without the kind of deep pocket investments that tend to dominate the latest architectural discussions?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 04:45:48 PM by Phil McDade »

BCowan

Re: Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's
« Reply #122 on: September 01, 2016, 04:56:09 PM »
Phil,

    You knocked it out of the park as did Kalen.  It's like we are playing in the same band and ur nailing the solo!  U need to be my editor  ;D

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