Renovating Doak 3's that could be 5's

[Mark Pritchett]

F&B as a profit center (with or without a lease-out) is also a dream

BS, One Under bar is in Livonia, MI.  I think they lease out the clubhouse from the city Muni golf course.  They kill it. 

I suppose F&B managers are rejoicing after reading your "substantive" response to Dave Doxey's thoughtful post above. 


With you on the scene, I have a hard time understanding how any golf club or golf course could not be "killing it".

Mark,

   I was just at a ball game Sunday with a few keepers.  One was mentioning how their F&B was $85,000 in the red.  Dave Doxey's response to mine saying F&B as a profit center (with or without a lease-out) is also a dream  that nobody can make money in this department is not true.  I provided an example and funny how that it wasn't a high end joint but a clubhouse for a Muni golf course.  GM's have been destroying Private golf for most of them have to much power and out rank the Keeper and the Pro which is out of whack.  They have been diverting money from Golf course improvements IMO and leading memberships into a money hole.  I know this might offend someone, how dare someone speak up. 

  Also Dave and I had a nice private message exchange. 

Your last statement might be your best post for the year!

I realize that in your own chimpanzee kind of way, you actually believe all of your outlandish drivel. 


Alas and alack your comments simply do not hold water in reality. 


How is your pay per view, retro golf tour coming along?

[BCowan]

F&B as a profit center (with or without a lease-out) is also a dream

BS, One Under bar is in Livonia, MI.  I think they lease out the clubhouse from the city Muni golf course.  They kill it. 

I suppose F&B managers are rejoicing after reading your "substantive" response to Dave Doxey's thoughtful post above. 


With you on the scene, I have a hard time understanding how any golf club or golf course could not be "killing it".

Mark,

   I was just at a ball game Sunday with a few keepers.  One was mentioning how their F&B was $85,000 in the red.  Dave Doxey's response to mine saying F&B as a profit center (with or without a lease-out) is also a dream  that nobody can make money in this department is not true.  I provided an example and funny how that it wasn't a high end joint but a clubhouse for a Muni golf course.  GM's have been destroying Private golf for most of them have to much power and out rank the Keeper and the Pro which is out of whack.  They have been diverting money from Golf course improvements IMO and leading memberships into a money hole.  I know this might offend someone, how dare someone speak up. 

  Also Dave and I had a nice private message exchange. 

Your last statement might be your best post for the year!

I realize that in your own chimpanzee kind of way, you actually believe all of your outlandish drivel. 


Alas and alack your comments simply do not hold water in reality. 


How is your pay per view, retro golf tour coming along?

Mark,

   I've worked maint at public course, caddied at 5 or 6 high end clubs, opened a golf course from infancy, and worked golf course construction, and been asked to speak at a Golf Assoc of Michigan lunch.  What qualifications do you have with the game of golf?  My comments do hold water and I have a relationship with many different levels of golf courses and ask many different public golfers their opinion, I actually have an on the grounds real life experience.  I provided a real place that does make money on F&B and could name another one.  I also have friends who are archies and keepers and they tell me budgets i can't discuss on here.  I have what's called critical thinking skills.  While you are worrying what course you AW on to, I'm researching and picking many people's brains. 

  In regards to pay per view, Gib said my numbers are pretty close and I haven't perused it more.  That is a winter project 

[JC Jones]

Mark,

   I was just at a ball game Sunday with a few keepers.  One was mentioning how their F&B was $85,000 in the red. 

$85K in the red?  #killingit

[BCowan]

Mark,

   I was just at a ball game Sunday with a few keepers.  One was mentioning how their F&B was $85,000 in the red. 

$85K in the red?  #killingit

Difference between private club F&B and a public course F&B with a good set up.  I know that is hard for you to grasp

[Carl Nichols]

Mark,

   I was just at a ball game Sunday with a few keepers.  One was mentioning how their F&B was $85,000 in the red. 

$85K in the red?  #killingit

Difference between private club F&B and a public course F&B with a good set up.  I know that is hard for you to grasp

Ben--
I suggest you run a 2-second google search for "in the red."

[BCowan]

Carl,

    The private club was in the Red $85,000 (losing money).  The clubhouse on the public muni (Livonia) is in the Black (Doing well).  The smart people or the experts are running the private one really well! 

I'd like to get this thread back on topic.

[Mark Pritchett]

Ben,


Your mind must be a happy place.  Please name the "5 or 6 clubs you caddied at" the "keepers you hang out with" your "archie friends", etc.  Enlighten us how the clubhouse at Livonia is "killing it".  With such vast experience  you must obviously hold a position of high regard in the golf industry.  Please tell us more and let's solve all of the games problems once and for all. 


-The elitist frat boy

[BCowan]

Mark,

    I don't need to redeem myself to you.  Holding a high position in the golf industry wouldn't be something I'd be proud of.  The elitist frat boys like yourself have done a great job of tanking it. 

   I'm getting very tired of your excessive thread jacking.  This thread is for spontaneous ideas, real world examples that have been posted. 

[Mark Pritchett]

For starters you could at least fess up to all of your prevarications. 

[BCowan]

Those are strong words u might wanna say that to my face. Last guy who baited me into posting private info, well he no longer posts here anymore  . 

I think u need to get a life

[Mark Pritchett]

Where should we meet?

[Terry Lavin]

The uninformed don't necessarily prevaricate. We may just be seeing evidence of what Trump calls "softening."  Of a cerebral nature.

[BCowan]

Where should we meet?

Up in Ann Arbor. Come take a vacation

[BCowan]

The uninformed don't necessarily prevaricate. We may just be seeing evidence of what Trump calls "softening."  Of a cerebral nature.

Terry,
   
    The saying "you can't buy class" has never been more appropriate when referring to you.  I'd much rather have a lower IQ

[JC Jones]

Where should we meet?

Up in Ann Arbor. Come take a vacation

North McDonalds.

[Mark Pritchett]

  I'd much rather have a lower IQ

Mission Accomplished!

[BCowan]

Mark,

   You talk a big game.  The smartest people aren't the most successful people 

[Josh Tarble]

To get this back on track so you don't embarrass yourself anymore....I think you need to look at the simple economics.

There are probably a few courses that could possibly go from a 3 to a 5 but since you're talking specifics and not which of these hypothetical courses could actually do it the real question is why.  If you're figuring a $1.5 million renovation, that's more like $2 million cash for a 15 year loan.  That's an additional $132,000 per year in revenue they'd need to bring in.  At $40 a round, that's roughly 3500 rounds per year just to pay off the loan.  If we're talking a course that's doing ok, they're probably somewhere near 20,000 rounds per year already, so you're talking an increase of 15%.  What happens to pace of play? What happens to your regular customers when they can't get their regular tee time?  How does that stress the maintenance budget?  What happens when people get tired of the renovation because 10 years in there's nothing new about it, it's just another above average course?

Now, changing mowing lines, cutting trees, expanding greens.  That's a more economical discussion but that won't change a course from a 3 to 5 and it sure as hell wouldn't bring in 15% more play.

[BCowan]

To get this back on track so you don't embarrass yourself anymore....I think you need to look at the simple economics.

There are probably a few courses that could possibly go from a 3 to a 5 but since you're talking specifics and not which of these hypothetical courses could actually do it the real question is why.  If you're figuring a $1.5 million renovation, that's more like $2 million cash for a 15 year loan.  That's an additional $132,000 per year in revenue they'd need to bring in.  At $40 a round, that's roughly 3500 rounds per year just to pay off the loan.  If we're talking a course that's doing ok, they're probably somewhere near 20,000 rounds per year already, so you're talking an increase of 15%.  What happens to pace of play? What happens to your regular customers when they can't get their regular tee time?  How does that stress the maintenance budget?  What happens when people get tired of the renovation because 10 years in there's nothing new about it, it's just another above average course?

Now, changing mowing lines, cutting trees, expanding greens.  That's a more economical discussion but that won't change a course from a 3 to 5 and it sure as hell wouldn't bring in 15% more play.

Josh,

    What I don't understand, but I'm not surprised is why you even care to post on this thread?  You are more interested in playing destination golf and high end private joints.  Have you lived anywhere other then Indy area?  If not I wouldn't be surprised for you having an outlook and stating real question is why.  Since you have a lot of high quality public golf options in Indy I'm not surprised by your outlook.  We do 30,000 rounds at my home course and pace of play is just fine, it's more culture related.  The course earlier in the thread has 100 members, which could easily get to 200-250 imo.  The more season pass/members the more ability the owner has to raise the fees on the non committed golfer looking for better conditioned course and a weekend time.  The whole theory that thoroughbreds should be maintained well is kinda of the analogy I'm making.  Courses that are 3's that have really good features and are just humming along at $25 is a shame IMO.  I know that isn't of top priority in your mind.  I'm not saying its a thoroughbred, it is just far from its full potential. 

      I'm hoping that Tom will chime in, but he probably can't give the common ground numbers.  The regular guy you mentioned in your post who plays would often would purchase a yearly season pass and get his same weekly time.  The loan would have to be more in the 2% range and or multiple investors throwing in with no loan.  10 years nothing new about the renovation  That makes absolutely no sense at all. 

   Please explain to us how you are going to expand a green when a sprinkler head would be on the putting surface after it's expanded?  If the average sprinkler system can last 50 years with minor repairs from time to time.  What is a public joint going to do when it comes time to replace the whole system and that price tag is $1.1 million now?  Adding width (changing mowing lines) and tree removal will help the turf at least we agree on that.  What is embarrassing is the constant obsession with top 100 golf on this site and people opining that have no real world experience or don't care about the subject matter.  This thread is for the few on here that are looking for free flow of ideas, forward thinking, and looking at poor and success models as way to move forward and improve ones community.   
 

[Josh Tarble]

To get this back on track so you don't embarrass yourself anymore....I think you need to look at the simple economics.

There are probably a few courses that could possibly go from a 3 to a 5 but since you're talking specifics and not which of these hypothetical courses could actually do it the real question is why.  If you're figuring a $1.5 million renovation, that's more like $2 million cash for a 15 year loan.  That's an additional $132,000 per year in revenue they'd need to bring in.  At $40 a round, that's roughly 3500 rounds per year just to pay off the loan.  If we're talking a course that's doing ok, they're probably somewhere near 20,000 rounds per year already, so you're talking an increase of 15%.  What happens to pace of play? What happens to your regular customers when they can't get their regular tee time?  How does that stress the maintenance budget?  What happens when people get tired of the renovation because 10 years in there's nothing new about it, it's just another above average course?

Now, changing mowing lines, cutting trees, expanding greens.  That's a more economical discussion but that won't change a course from a 3 to 5 and it sure as hell wouldn't bring in 15% more play.

Josh,

    What I don't understand, but I'm not surprised is why you even care to post on this thread?  You are more interested in playing destination golf and high end private joints.  Have you lived anywhere other then Indy area?  If not I wouldn't be surprised for you having an outlook and stating real question is .  Since you have a lot of high quality public golf options in Indy.  We do 30,000 rounds at my home course and pace of play is just fine, it's culture related.  The course earlier in the thread has 100 members, which could easily get to 200-250 imo.  The more season pass/members the more ability the owner has to raise the fees on the non committed golfer looking for better conditioned course and a weekend time.  The whole theory that thoroughbreds should be maintained well is kinda of the analogy I'm making.  Courses that are 3's that have really good features and are just humming along at $25 is a shame IMO.  I know that isn't of top priority in your mind.  I'm not saying its a thoroughbred, it is just far from its full potential. 

      I'm hoping that Tom will chime in, but he probably can't give the common ground numbers.  The regular guy who plays would purchase a yearly season pass and get his time.  The loan would have to be more in the 2% range and or multiple investors throwing in.  10 years nothing new about the renovation  That makes absolutely no sense at all. 

   Please explain to us how you are going to expand a green when a sprinkler head is now on the green?  If the average sprinkler system can last 50 years with minor repairs from time to time.  What is a public joint going to do when it comes time to replace the whole system and that price tag is $1.1 million?  Adding width (changing mowing lines) and tree removal will help the turf at least we agree on that.  What is embarrassing is the constant obsession with top 100 golf on this site and people opining that have no real world experience or don't care about the subject matter.  This thread is for the few on here that are looking for free flow of ideas, forward thinking, and looking at poor and success models as way to move forward and improve ones community.   
 

What?

[Tim Gavrich]

Dear GCACommenter--


I think it's simply the case that many Doak 3 courses have such strong routing/architectural deficiencies that raising them to a Doak 5 or 6 would be cost-prohibitive.


You say courses that are Doak 3s (PRO TIP: no need to use apostrophes when pluralizing a word) that are "humming along at $25 is a shame." Why? As multiple people have expressed in this thread, in most cases, the cost of the improvements necessary to bump those courses up significantly (if they're even reasonably possible) would likely require those courses to raise their green fees. Maybe you can afford more than $25 for your rounds, but maybe the majority of the people who play those courses cannot or would prefer not to. I would think that such a champion of the Little Guy as yourself would understand that better than the rest of us elitist louts. If all these lower-end but solvent courses Cowanized themselves, that would eliminate a significant segment of golfers. That sounds pretty elitist to me!


Of course, the truth is that plenty of us on this site, including the people you've ad hominem-attacked, have played many rounds at the sort of humble, below-the-radar courses on which you would prefer to think yourself this site's only expert. The two-course facility I play most often here in Florida is home to probably a 3 and a 4. The place is at least moderately busy all the time and does nicely. Both courses could be a lot better architecturally, of course, but
¯\_(ツ)_/¯.


At some point you have to separate out what your perfect world would look like from what's realistic.

[Jason Thurman]

That makes absolutely no sense at all. 

Ben, this line really resonated with me. I had the same thought myself the entire time I was reading your post.


Don't hold it against Josh, Mark, and others that they don't understand you. They're all hampered by their lack of real-world experience, as you note, but also by the fact that they all primarily speak English and therefore whatever language it is that you're typing in is, at best, a second language for them.

[BCowan]

Tim,

  I know it's hard for you to grasp.  Take a $1500 season pass and divide it by 50-60 rounds.  The season pass holder gets a deal for committing to the course.  It's the same thing at a much lower scale to what Mid Pines and Pine Needles did, yearly membership very inexpensive and resort player pays a good deal.   The guy who plays 5 times a year, has no problem shelling out $50 to enjoy the few times he gets to play or he can go pay $20 at the 20 other courses that charge that.  If there are 20 courses that all charge $15-25 they aren't going away and there is too many of those, nothing in between.  I know that you are big into doing renovations with tax payer money which I'm against.  So I find it rather ironic that improving certain courses you don't see as a noble idea, but I guess they have to be a golden age pedigree 

[Mark Pritchett]

Not sure why Ben starts threads as in his mind he already has all the answers.

[PCCraig]

Holy smokes this thread is a train wreck.


I actually tried to read Ben's last post word for word. I now have a headache.


Rich Mandell renovated Keller GC in Saint Paul, Minnesota a couple of years ago. That could was probably a "4" before the renovation, and probably a "5" after. I believe they had a huge budget, but a lot of it went to a new clubhouse. All paid for with public money/bonds. The course was pretty much packed all day long before the renovation @ ~$35/round and it's packed all day now at ~$40/round. We played it in the Mashie last year and I think we all paid $25 for a Twilight/Fall round.


A great example of another course that would benefit from just a little bit of love would be the Charleston City Muni. It's a low country course set on the water, with a bunch of built up greens with terribly shrunken putting surfaces. I believe they just spent a bunch of money on a new irrigation system. That place would be hugely improved with a decent architect, a master plan, and maybe $500thd in captial funds. But then again, it costs $20 to play, has a few really cool holes, an awesome little clubhouse, and a packed tee sheet. So perhaps the average golfer could care less about mowing patterns?