Short Par 4 18th holes

[Pete_Pittock]

Is there any architectural argument against them?
Prestwick has one which is drivable.  Olympic, Cypress Point and Inverness have closers in the 340-360 range, but I can't pinpoint others at notable courses

Add: Duh, on The Old Course.

[Bill_Yates]

The Old Course. Nobody has argued about that as a good finishing hole since 1764.

[Greg Gilson]

Durban.

Wonderful risk reward fun where every score from 1 (well, 2) to 6 is on the cards

[Mark Pearce]

North Berwick.  And, of course, the best 18th hole in the world at Kington.

[Kyle Henderson]

Olympic Club - Lake.

No argument against from me.

[Thomas Dai]

Takes the biscuit - 18th at Kington

Atb

[James Brown]

Machrihnish

[Josh Stevens]

Woking. lovely little hole

[MCirba]

Inverness.

[Tim Martin]

Somerset Hills

[David McIntosh]

Kilspindie has a short home hole, around 250 yards, the clubhouse and OB through the back of the green with an old stone wall sitting diagonally at either side of the fairway.

[Tom_Doak]

Is there any architectural argument against them?

The argument is from a medal play point of view, that it leads to an unexciting finish if the last is an easy birdie hole.  Though I've always thought the opposite is also true ... it's an anticlimax to watch a tournament where most guys are bogeying 18 and the leader in the clubhouse is more likely to win than the guy still out there.


Not all short par-4 finishers [even the ones named] are great holes:  I wouldn't have been happy building the 18th at Olympic, or Machrihanish, or Somerset Hills, or Cypress Point.  But Inverness and Kington and Durban and The Old Course are great finishers, and North Berwick and Prestwick are great fun if you are playing match play.

[Paul Gray]

A recent trip to Royal Wimbledon revealed to me a very pleasant short 18th.

And the 18th at Camberley Heath has always impressed me.

[V. Kmetz]

Is there any architectural argument against them?

The argument is from a medal play point of view, that it leads to an unexciting finish if the last is an easy birdie hole.  Though I've always thought the opposite is also true ... it's an anticlimax to watch a tournament where most guys are bogeying 18 and the leader in the clubhouse is more likely to win than the guy still out there.

I agree that the opposite is true... and the fact of the matter is that 99.5% of all courses, few are "watching" the end of any tournament (match or medal)...not on TV, not at the greenside, not even from the grill, so I care very little about how it looks to viewers who aren't ever going to be there; this is one that matters infinitely more to the actual player/field than any external critic.


Considering that, I agree just as strongly with TD that the opposite is true, because a short 4 is just as pressured packed in the availability of 3... Someone's gonna get her phone number and have a chance to get laid... and making a 5+ on such a hole is like admitting you have herpes within 30 seconds of her sidling up to you.


And match play? there's no question a short par 4 is an exciting conclusion to a match that should get that far.


cheers
vk

[BCowan]

Is there any architectural argument against them?

The argument is from a medal play point of view, that it leads to an unexciting finish if the last is an easy birdie hole.  Though I've always thought the opposite is also true ... it's an anticlimax to watch a tournament where most guys are bogeying 18 and the leader in the clubhouse is more likely to win than the guy still out there.


Not all short par-4 finishers [even the ones named] are great holes:  I wouldn't have been happy building the 18th at Olympic, or Machrihanish, or Somerset Hills, or Cypress Point.  But Inverness and Kington and Durban and The Old Course are great finishers, and North Berwick and Prestwick are great fun if you are playing match play.

I agree for the most part.  Hale Irwin bogeyed 18 at Inverness in 79' and Norman 3 putted the short 10th to lose to Zinger in 93'.  Tway in 86 was a holed out Birdie on 18. 

[Terry Lavin]

#16 just played an important role in the Olympics as both Rose and Stenson played conservatively off the tee but Stenson executed his second shot masterfully as Rose hit a mediocre pitch. Stenson birdied to tie Rose who narrowly missed his much-longer birdie putt.

[Tom_Doak]

#16 just played an important role in the Olympics as both Rose and Stenson played conservatively off the tee but Stenson executed his second shot masterfully as Rose hit a mediocre pitch. Stenson birdied to tie Rose who narrowly missed his much-longer birdie putt.

Not that important, considering how the last two holes went !

[Sean Leary]

18 at Prairie Dunes plays very short with the prevailing wind and is an excellent hole...

[Pete_Pittock]

It is interesting that they all seem to be on classic, rather than modern, courses.

[Sean Leary]

It is interesting that they all seem to be on classic, rather than modern, courses.

Many weren't that short when they were built...

[Sean_A]

Its also very interesting that the concept of short 4s...as in reachable...is quite modern, but picked up on because of how equipment advances changed the playing characteristics of drive and pitch holes from classic courses.  I also wonder if this has led to a renaissance in designing drive and pitch holes.  My impression is that this sort of hole was more or less removed from the designer tool kit and may be making a comeback.  One of the great advantages of short courses is the yardage range between 220 and 350 can be far better exploited adn in turn I think we can see just how good archies are when length is removed as the primary defence.  Its quite remarkable how often there can be only one or two holes in this range.


Perranporth's 18th is very good as is Burnham's Channel Course (which is a hugely under-rated course). 


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I'd like to echo Sean's comment about the 18th on Burnhams Channel course - 3 photos here - http://burnhamandberrowgolfclub.co.uk/channel-course/9/


A really, really fine links hole is the 18th, which also plays as the 9th from a different tee. Wind and ground conditions mean it's sometimes drivable, sometimes not. And if not a pitch or sometimes a much longer full shot is needed to an evil/nice plateau green with both high and lower shelves. Not easy to hold the green let alone get close to the pin. Short but thought provoking and challenging, a great combination imo.


Do you happen to know who designed The Channel Course Sean?


At a post Buda get together a couple of years ago several of us spent half an hour or so after we'd finished playing just chipping and pitching around this green and surrounds, which were burnt out and brown and very fiery. Great fun.


Atb

[Sean_A]

I don't know for certain, but I think Fred Hawtree (the only other candidate would be Pennink, but I doubt he was involved) built the Channel Course on a shoe string budget using filler from the construction of the M5 as a foundation for the course. 


Ciao

[J_ Crisham]

Midlothian in Chicago - 330yds. Tee shot must be fit between 2 ponds. Hagen won the Open here . Some very nice holes on this overtreed course -18 is not one of them IMO

[Ken Moum]

Although not famous,  in Topeka, where I currently reside, we have a nice, old Ross and overtrred Maxwell that both have very short 18th holes.

At Shawnee CC, my home course, it's 310 yards through a sizeable dip that means any tee shot over 200 yards leaves you with a short pitch of a steep uphill lie to green with a lot of slope back to front.

Plenty of birdies and lots of bogies. In fact,  based in differential scores, it could be #1 handicap hole.

Topeka CC's last isn't as interesting IMHO but it's equally devious being straight uphill with a severe green.

I like short finishers,  in a large part because I see too many modern courses where nine out of ten amateurs leave the course feeling devastated.