Last Minute Scotland Trip: East Lothian/Fife

[Charles Lund]

Have a great trip.

I am thinking about taking the train up to Aberdeen from Glasgow in late May for about three nights and playing Cruden Bay a couple of times and Murcar.  Royal Aberdeen is pretty special. 

Carnoustie on the way back will be a good way to finish. 

Get rested up in St. Andrews, don't stress out on golf there, and enjoy the town.

Charles Lund

[Jon Wiggett]

In my opinion (and that's all it is) Gullane 1 is amongst the most over-rated courses in the UK.  Spectacular views, yes.  Priced like a top course, yes.  But real quality holes?  One or two.  Elie, on the other hand, has perhaps a dozen holes you'll remember for a long time.  Is it long? No.  Is it a "championship" course?  No.  Does it offer more exciting, enjoyable shots than Gullane 1?  Yes, by a substantial distance.  Does it have a more enjoyable, challenging set of greens?  Yes, by an even larger margin.

Mark,


Whilst I agree that Elie is the more enjoyable course with a better set of greens requiring more imagination from 50 yards in and that No.1 is way over priced, Gullane is clearly the better course from a test of golf point of view. It requires more thought than Elie and that the player works the ball more. But please don't get me wrong. I would play Elie eight times to Gullane's two on a ten round split. I think Gullane lacks quirkiness to be a truly great course such as TOC or NB are where as Elie has almost too much of the same quirkiness and too many drive, wedge holes to be absolutely top draw. I would take Kilspindie over it just but that is just me.


Jon

[Sean_A]

Its always difficult to compare quality across the board and to compare opinions of quality across the board.  I certainly don't see eye to eye with Pearce re Muirfield, but I am 100% behind his opinion of Elie V Gullane.  In some ways its the same sort of argument of Muirfield V NB. Elie is a much more whimsical course than Gullane. For sure I find Elie to be more enjoyable and very high on my Happy 100.  To be honest, I would rather play Gullane #3 over #1.  Yes, its too short in firm conditions, but a better design imo. 


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,


I suppose it all boils down to what you are judging. When judging a courses greatness then usually the concept of golfing challenge and diversity is what is judged. Does a course require the player to be able to execute to a reasonable degree of competence a varied number of shot types and use of clubs throughout the bag. On this scale Gullane No.1 is clearly superior to Elie. However, from the point of view of fun then Elie is clearly the winner for me.


Jon

[Sean_A]

Jon

I could care less about use of clubs throughout the bag because everybody's bag is different and everybody's choice of shot selection is different. I would focus more on does a design allow for folks to play their preferred shot or does it more dictate what is required?  There is a fine line here and that will be different for everyubody.

The challenge? Well, so long as a course can challenge scratch players thats enough for me on that front.   

I look for individuality and lasting interest of holes (feeds the is the course fun to play question), use of terrain, how the man-made elements accentuate the use of terrain, the efficiency and effectiveness of bunkers, playability for most golfers both in terms of vegetation management and style of design which enables golfers to get around the course, beauty of the design and quality of greens. 

For me, Elie clearly tops Gullane, but I can accept that some folks focus more on challenge and required shotmaking.  It just seems to me that these are the easy elements for any archie to accomplish...so not that important in the big scheme of things.

I know you will focus on the beauty element, but I will say that beauty comes in all forms.  I can find equal beauty in the stark and rudimentary style of bunking as evidenced by Fowler at Walton Heath or the beautiful, more naturalized style of Simpson and C&C. I wish more archies embraced the raw edged earthwork style features, but right now there are only eyes for the natural look.  The problem for me with the natural look is most sites don't readily lend themselves to this style and the natural look will often look obviously so....not much out there worse than that so far as I am concerned.

Anyway...I would love to return to Elie, Gullane only if invited or for some other special reason.  Like Nairn and Muirfield (though I think Muirfield is far and away better), Gullane just doesn't do much for me.  As I say, I would rather play #3 then #1. 

Ciao   

[Mark Fedeli]

Well, the tee times are locked, except for Friday. We could only play North Berwick on Thursday, so that opened up Wednesday for Gullane #1. That might also mean Elie waits until next time:


WED: Gullane #1
THU: North Berwick (36)
FRI: St. Andrews New
SAT: Kingsbarns
SUN: Cruden Bay
MON: Murcar & Royal Aberdeen
TUE: Carnoustie


I'm choosing the experience of walking from our rental house to St. Andrews to play the New Course over playing Elie on our way up from East Lothian. We could cram another round or two in but we want to leave some breathing room.


Thanks to everyone who gave advice. I know there are so many of these types of threads, and while I understand why they are frowned upon, I feel they can actually spur wonderful conversations about lesser-discussed courses.

[Keith Phillips]

That's a great itinerary - if any of your crew are up for an additional 18 on day 1, Gullane #3 is a lot of fun.  Enjoy the trip and please report back when you're done.

[Andy Shulman]

That's a great lineup.  Too bad about Elie.  It's fun and quirky, while the New is pretty straightforward and tough.  But you've got two of the top fun and quirky's in North Berwick and Crudent Bay.  And, Gullane No. 1 - in its own way, mostly Gullane Hill - is a bit quirky.


Have a great time!

[Charles Lund]

Have a great time. 

I am sure you will get a good taste for golf in Scotland. 

Charles

[Mark Fedeli]

Guys, I've been super busy and haven't had a chance to give a report on my first ever trip to Scotland. I've also not been terribly motivated to write about it because, get this, the experience was so satisfying that I've barely thought about golf at all since I returned more than 2 months ago. And this comes from a guy who would run over his mother to get a round in.


But anyway, long story short, everything and everyone was fantastic. I went with a group of guys who are not architecture nuts and for whom I would've bet Kingsbarns would be the highlight. But guess what? Good ol' North Berwick was the unanimous favorite. I was very proud. And I must say, North Berwick exceeded all of my expectations and, even in a pretty stiff wind, was some of the most fun I've ever had golfing. Plus, the people there were wonderful and beyond accommodating.


Cruden Bay was another highlight. What an incredibly unique course. Possibly the most dramatic, in a good way, of any course I've ever played. It was certainly the most different from anything else I'd ever experienced. Royal Aberdeen too, to a lesser extent.


Our round at Carnoustie was also notable. It was a windless, warm day with not a cloud in the sky. In those conditions, you had to pull off some shots and get some good angles in, but it was never overbearing or especially difficult. Very surprising how tame it played with no wind.


Hope to have time to write more later. We also played Gullane #1 and #3, the Eden course, and Murcar.

[Angus Moir]

my five cents worth would be to minimise the car/driving as much as possible and soak up East Lothian to the full. That way(and speaking as A Scot) you get to 'soak up' all the local vibe as well as spend less time sitting in traffic.


Must plays are North Berwick,Gullane 1,Dunbar,Luffness and obviously Muirfield if you can get on(stay at Greywalls Sunday night???)


nice to play are Aberlady, other Gullane courses, and Musselburgh 9 holer(for the history)..


a second round at any of the must plays would be no hardship btw!


Archerfield also has two nice tracks and a great accomodation option with sweet 4 bed timber lodges..


all above within 30 mins approx of each other and great restaurants/pubs and other attractions nearby...


ditch the car driving and feel the vibe!!


enjoy..

[Howard Riefs]

A good Golf Channel article on experience waiting overnight and getting a walk-up tee time on TOC. Well worth a read for those who aren't successful via the advance reservations (or ballot/lottery) process... 


http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/st-andrews-walk-on-tee-time-16478.htm




For those of you who have played TOC via a walk-up tee time, what time did you arrive in line? And what time of year was that?

[Tony_Muldoon]

A good Golf Channel article on experience waiting overnight and getting a walk-up tee time on TOC. Well worth a read for those who aren't successful via the advance reservations (or ballot/lottery) process... 


http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/st-andrews-walk-on-tee-time-16478.htm




For those of you who have played TOC via a walk-up tee time, what time did you arrive in line? And what time of year was that?

I think it was 2008 and we had a house in St Andrews for a week. You can’t entre the ballot as a single, so queuing was a given.
It was about 8.30am on a beautiful Monday morning in July when I walked my dog to the starters hut.  It was a scouting mission for later in the week.
I asked how long the wait would be and was told If I had clubs I could head out anytime before 9.15. They’d sent a bunch of people away until 9.30am and “about half the ballot winners have failed to show.”  I ran to our house faster than the dog.  It’s lovely waking through a town with soft spikes on and a bag over  your shoulder heading out.
Got there at 5.50am on the Thursday that week and was told I was X in line, no need to sit there come back at 9.30. Went home to bed and showed up at 8.30 and got away about 9.45.

[Drew Groeger]

For those of you who have played TOC via a walk-up tee time, what time did you arrive in line? And what time of year was that?

My experience was very similar to the article, although I was there in late September. I trundled down to the pavilion at 4:00am and was 8th in line. Got added to a 3-some for the 12:30pm tee time, went back to the hotel, ate a nice Scottish breakfast, slept a bit more (sort of), teed off at 12:30 and created memories for a lifetime!

[Ira Fishman]

Hopping on this thread for our trip next year.  We are playing North Berwick twice, and have one more day for golf in East Lothian.  Gullane #1 is not available.  For frame of reference, my wife and I both embraced Brora and Golspie last year, but she did not enjoy Nairn.  Looking at Luffness New and Kilspindie because Dunbar seems too similar to Narin.  As always, thoughts and suggestions most welcome.


Thanks,


Ira

[Niall C]

Ira,

I was just talking about Luffness New last night with a pal who played it for the first time recently. He loved it and so did I the two times I played it. It’s also a great experience particularly if you are prepared to pitch up in jacket and tie and do lunch. So I certainly wouldn’t try and dissuade you from Luffness New.

Kilspindie is more relaxed and closer to the water if that counts for anything with a mix of great and not so great holes. Also charming but more relaxed as I say.

That said, I’d suggest either Gullane 2 or Gullane 3 with probably Gullane 3 my preference. No. 2 is a slightly smaller version of No. 1 and likewise No. 3 is a smaller version of No. 2. All three courses play over Gullane Law and offer panoramic views. If forced to choose I’d pick no. 3 over the other two.

Niall 

[Richard Fisher]

Luffness New. Definitely, as an experience overall (a mini-Muirfield at less than half the price), and to some extent LNGC is a gentleman's club with a very enjoyable (and fairly easy walking) golf course attached, where the lunch is integral to the general proposition.

Gullane is always very, very busy, and so it depends, ultimately, on what sort of experience you want. You could do a winning short-course 36-hole combo of (say) Gullane 3 and Kilspindie, which would be barely 11 000 yards of quirky, interesting golf to some lovely greens (and those on Gullane 3 are just as good as those on 1 and 2).

However this ends up you'll have fun.

[Michael Graham]

Ira,


Don’t sell Dunbar short. It’s terrific course that deserves to be more highly thought of. If it was a bit closer up the coast to Gullane/NB it would receive a lot more traffic.


That said you can’t go wrong with any of East Lothian’s finest.

[Ken Moum]

Hopping on this thread for our trip next year.  We are playing North Berwick twice, and have one more day for golf in East Lothian.  Gullane #1 is not available.  For frame of reference, my wife and I both embraced Brora and Golspie last year, but she did not enjoy Nairn.  Looking at Luffness New and Kilspindie because Dunbar seems too similar to Narin.  As always, thoughts and suggestions most welcome.


Thanks,


Ira

IMHO Dunbar resembles Nairn in the way a GMC resembles a Cadillac Escalade.


Despite the complaints about the holes on the upland side of the.stone wall, the ones on the sea side are a hoot.


Of Gullane 3, Luffness New and Kilspindie I'd probably give Luffness a slight edge, but Kilspindie is a proper links when the wind is up.


Its one of those courses that gives off an unpretentious, comfortable vibe from the sort cramped car park to the opening par three that plays straight towards the sea. And you don't have to climb that damned hill.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ira,


I would suggest playing Kilspindie and Musselburgh Old both of which I am sure you and your wife will love. Other than that then either Gullane 1 or 2 or Luffness New are good choices.

[Sean_A]

Hopping on this thread for our trip next year.  We are playing North Berwick twice, and have one more day for golf in East Lothian. Gullane #1 is not available.  For frame of reference, my wife and I both embraced Brora and Golspie last year, but she did not enjoy Nairn.  Looking at Luffness New and Kilspindie because Dunbar seems too similar to Narin.  As always, thoughts and suggestions most welcome.

Thanks,

Ira

First off, Dunbar is quite a bit better than its non-rep suggests.  Its also beautiful and the only one of the three choices which gets you directly at the sea. If it means anything, I think Dunbar is the best of the three.

If the Mrs is playing and with the three options listed, go for Kilspindie if it works well logistically.  Its short, with some quirk, pretty spot, laid back club. If one of the other two work better logistically go there.  Bottom line, there isn't a bad choice to be made.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

because Dunbar seems too similar to Narin.

Is this a typo for Nairn, or do you mean Narin and Portnoo?  Either way, it's one of the oddest comments I have read here for a while.

[Ira Fishman]

Mark,


Yes, that is a typo, sorry.  From what I have read, Dunbar is long and difficult for women and difficulty is one of the reasons she did not enjoy Nairn. And she is a hardy soul for a 25 handicap who loved The Island Club on a windy day and Royal Dornoch. If my assumption about Dunbar is off base, I would appreciate hearing.


Thanks,


Ira

[Michael Graham]

Ira,


Your assumption about Dunbar is off base. I wouldn’t have said it’s particularly long and difficult, especially for women. The four holes on the clubhouse side of the wall aren’t anything special but the fourteen on the water side are terrific. Apart from a burn coming into play on a couple of holes I can’t think of any forced carries. It may not fit into your schedule but I definitely wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand.

[Mark Pearce]

Your assumption is off base.  I have only played Dunbar twice but long and difficult is not what I remember.