Is angle of attck over rated for tour pros

[Tommy Williamsen]

on every broadcast of PGA TOUR events we will here some one say, "for the best angle he needs to be on x side of the fairway." Quite often the player is out of position yet stuffs the approach shot. On very firm ground it makes some difference but at most tournaments it seems to make little difference where the drive ends up. The result is that the courses become easier for them and negates any of the courses architectural merits.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have asked a few Tour Pros that....basically, if they have a frontal opening, and are between clubs, they hit their standard shot, but club down to be below the pin for the uphill putt.  If they have a bunker, they club up, and hit it for hard spin, to back it down to the hole.  And, they are aware of the slopes near the back of the green, or the side slopes, and use both, when necessary to trickle the ball down to the hole.

[David_Tepper]

Tommy -

Yes, with most of the pros hitting wedges or short irons into the majority of greens in their rounds, the concern over the "angle of attack" has been reduced to a large extent. On the other hand, it seems to me that the pins on most greens for PGA Tour events are set far closer to the edges of the greens than they ever used to be. The penalty for short-siding yourself is likely most severe than it used to be.

DT

   

[Carl Nichols]

If you hypothesize two pros who both hit 14 fairways in a round, but one always finds the best angle and the other the worst, the difference in their expected scores is unlikely to be 5 strokes, but I could imagine it's 1-2 -- which adds up over four rounds.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

With the narrowed fairways that the PGA Tour Pros play, isn't the angle of attack almost dictated to them.

For example, the 18th fairway at WFW is about 18 yards wide at one point in the DZ with about 3 yards being on an upslope on the right side of the fairway, effectively reducing the width to about 15 yards ?

At 15 yards, is there that much of a difference in the angle of attack between the extreme flanks of the fairway (left & right) ?

The angle of attack is so dependent upon the configuration of the green and it's surrounds.

In general, due to the distance the PGA TP's hit the ball along with the higher trajectories they produce, angles of attack have been marginalized to a good degree.

I'm trying to remember a hole I played recently where the angle of attack into the green was paramount.

If you were not in the proper DZ, as Yogi said, "you can't get there from here."

I believe that AOA is more meaningful to the golfer, the higher his handicap gets.

[Peter Pallotta]

Of course, many of these tour pros often miss these narrow fairways, and coming out of the rough does/can make the angle of attack more important and relevant -- hence Tiger's "missing on the correct side" mantra when he was dominating.   

Peter

[Adrian_Stiff]

It would be almost obsolete with traditional width. With narrow fairways it has some regard but strategic golf applies less and less for the best and better players on a sliding scale up to about a 12-14 handicap after which the players standard is such that he does not have enough skill to really control the ball so likely to hit any hazard, left, right, short or long.

[Pat Burke]

Tommy NAC and I talk about this a lot.
For young professionals, width just means bomb it.  I'm not saying they are correct, but it takes some extreme
contours, angles, firmness, and (likely) speed on and around greens to influence angles for these guys.


Think Jason Day.  He is hitting his six iron 130+ feet in the air.  I don't know his short iron numbers.  But it is pretty tough
to put a hole location somewhere (that isn't silly) that he can't get to.  Unless there is some combination of firm, contour etc.


When I played the qualifier at Monifieth, I started horribly, and on number 7, the hole was located right, behind the bunker, which had a little spine coming off the bunker.  My original game plan was to hit a 190 yard tee shot and leave a 140-145 shot that I would just hit 25-30 feet left of the hole.  After my terrible start, I decided (with my trusty caddy) to hit driver towards the gorse on the left to leave an angle and pitch I could get close.


The young guys, would just blast the crap out of one.  If on a good line, they have a simple pitch.  IN the front bunker, a tough but reasonable opportunity.  Miss right, pitch to the fat side of the green and two putt.  For me, options, tour pros, not much thinking.

[Thomas Dai]

More, lots of them, micro-contours, mini-moguls and washboard.


I can't believe that anyone, even the very top of the cream, really likes playing from uneven lies even when the grass is fairway length.


Now if only someone could invent a machine that has the ability to easily and cheaply create micro-contours, mini-moguls and washboards in fairways....😊


Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

More, lots of them, micro-contours, mini-moguls and washboard.


I can't believe that anyone, even the very top of the cream, really likes playing from uneven lies even when the grass is fairway length.


Now if only someone could invent a machine that has the ability to easily and cheaply create micro-contours, mini-moguls and washboards in fairways....😊


Atb

Thomas,


its been used by GCAs for years and is called the 'village idiot' 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I know this is about Tour Pros.....but who cares?  Frontal openings are still important for the slower swing speed golfers who play the course every day.

[Pat Burke]

I know this is about Tour Pros.....but who cares?  Frontal openings are still important for the slower swing speed golfers who play the course every day.

Well Jeff, I agree.  But there seems to ban awful lot of very good courses getting lengthened to stay relevant for the 1% 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

And not to go cross thread, but one of the trends I see in response to JC Urbina's comments is that most courses will basically design to ignore the 1%.  One size fits all never worked in fashion.....not really in restaurants any more as we prefer specialty restaurants to general menu, and I see no reason why it should continue to be the model for golf!

[Nigel Islam]

Every few months there is an extreme weather situation that the PGA guys play that dictates those frontal openings and angles being important. It's like 2-3 rounds a year, but on the right course it makes watching quite interesting.

[Josh Stevens]

Didn't you answer your own question?? " at most tournaments it seems to make little difference where the drive ends up"
[/size][/color]
[/size]Its firmness. Make the greens hard so the balls bounces forward and all the problems are solved?[/color]

[/size]Stop watering the greens.[/color]

[A.G._Crockett]

Don't you think this question hinges on too many variables to yield just one answer?  Doesn't the answer vary from course to course, from hole to hole and from pin position to pin position, even for the pros?  Whenever I go to a pro event, I'm struck by the fact that these guys are all at least attempting to play holes the same way, including the side of the fairway they hit.

The year David Toms won the PGA at Atlanta Athletic Club, I sat in the grandstand behind the first green and watched every group play the first hole.  The hole is a long dogleg left par 4, with a huge oak on the inside of the dogleg and a front left bunker.  EVERY player tried to go to the right side of the fairway away from that tree.  The ones that missed the fairway ALL tried to hit it in the front left bunker, knowing that they couldn't hold the green out of the rough, and rather than try to get up and down from the thick bermuda rough around the green.

So I think it DOES matter, at least on some holes on some courses to some pins.  I think that the single most salient fact from Mark Broadie's research is that proximity of approach is the biggest separator on Tour, and I just don't see any way that it wouldn't consistently matter where in the fairway you are hitting from in terms of proximity.

(Disclaimer: I don't know that what Jason Day or Bubba Watson or various others are doing is indicative of what MOST Tour pros are doing.  Most NBA players make their living by knowing what their shots are (and are not), including the side of the floor; that Steph Curry doesn't worry about that kind of thing doesn't mean much to the others.  Few MLB pitchers try to pitch like Nolan Ryan did, and few NFL teams run an offense similar to what the Pats can run with Brady.  And so on...)