It's a subtle difference

[A_Clay_Man]

I was recently approached by a lurker on this site who proceeded to tell me how "you guys" with our firm and fast notions, don't have a clue on what it takes and how to run, maintain or really anything about a golf course. My first reponse was that there is no collective, just experienced golfers who appreciated the totality of this game.

It got me to thinking that the difference between F&F and chocolate pudding is a slight subtle one. In others words, F&F can be achieved without losing turf or a super losing his job because the place resembles concrete.

If I had one wish, it would be that this website can somehow convey to those in the position to decide, just how much and when water is applied, will learn that difference is a subtle one.

[Joe Hancock]

Adam,

I'm not positive if you're asking a question, or making a statement.

The firm and fast that some of us like are achievable to some degree everywhere. Sometimes it is a seasonal thing, sometimes not. Soils matter. Grass selection matters.

Think about where we've come from in golf maintenence to where we are now. It has taken a long time to get to our low cut, over-watered, perfect lie everywhere type of play. So, to suggest that water management for firm and fast is as simple as tweaking a few run times on the irrigation box on any given day doesn't give the course or the super much of a chance. I purchased a golf course that was maintained very wet, very green.....just what everyone wants. After 6 years of weaning the place off of excessively applied water, I am starting to see and feel the difference in the playing field.

There is a lot of education that goes into firm and fast. Does one start with the lower handicappers who are more likely to have the talent to adjust their game? Or, does it start with high handicappers who will benefit from increased distance on shots and the chance to roll one up there? I had an older couple, who have played our course for at least 30 years, stop me one day about 80 yards out in front of a "wedding cake" green. They dared me to be able to stop a shot on the green. He handed me a sand wedge, which I promptly traded for his 5 iron. Granted it was a lucky shot, but you should have seen their faces after I rolled it up to 3 feet. I said "class dismissed", and went about my business.

I think that this website is doing a good deal in terms of increasing golfer awareness as to why F&F is good for golf. We do need to be cautious to not make it sound too easy to achieve, because it isn't. It takes time, support, knowledge and, maybe most importantly, demand. It has to start somewhere, and we should be proud it is so welcomed in this group. Be patient, talk it up and play accordingly!

Oh, and tell your lurker friend to contribute to the site by sharing his knowledge, we all are still learning!

Joe

[RT]

We do need to be cautious to not make it sound too easy to achieve, because it isn't. It takes time, support, knowledge and, maybe most importantly, demand.

You did strike the most important foundation if you are to have F&F conditions; soil types (and their inherent drainage characteristics, particle size distribution, sub-soil profiles, particle shapes, etc.) and turfgrass selections.

[A_Clay_Man]

Joe- Thanx for the response. I was just hoping to have a discussion and further all our educations.

In a recent email conversation with Dave Wilber he acknowledged that watering is very much site specific. And perhaps living here in NM., a real home of the pudding, I am a bit overwhelmed with the other over-W. One good thing for me, is the summer is the only time it occurrs and that leaves a majority of the year where the courses are either in transition or dormant. But I did notice that the difference between getting mud on my glasses and never having to clean my ball wasn't a whole hell of alot.

I guess what got me started was hearing Don Mahaffey say he watered about every four days. Now Amarillo is only about 7 hours from here and that seems like a short difference in geography to justify and require everyday 100 percent watering. We do get some very low humidity and high ET rates here but even so I always thought grass was tough stuff.

If i'm wrong I'd like to hear all about it, but if through discussing it, we can make one guy re-think his approach or  lower it to 70 percent, It'll be worth it. Don't ya think?

[Joe Hancock]

Adam,

I agree 100%. In fact, after 25 years of doing what the highly esteemed Don does, I am still amazed at how much I don't know.

I've always maintained on the dry side, but it was more for my own playing preference.

As I continue to do dry, I can't believe the trickle down effects of that style of turf management...most of them for the best.

Will other supers change because of this website? Possibly. As we always mention when we discuss the moisture levels, it is very site specific, and requires diligence to maintain somewhat uniform conditions across an entire golf course.

Adam, maybe you can follow in Mr. Bahto's footsteps, only you will be known as the evangelist of F&F. Keep the conversions going!


Joe

[Don_Mahaffey]

Adam,
This summer I was on a four day watering cycle on my greens only. The rest of the course was pretty much every other day. When I did water my greens it was usually about 1.5 inches, or close to 3 hours of run time. So, not less water, just less often applied.

Now, back to your original questions. Keep this in mind, the person you mention is as happy to listen to your input as you would be to listen to him when you were in the middle of a busy day during your professional career. Seriously, how much professional advice did you seek from folks trained in completly different fields then your own. Having said that, you are a customer and deserve to be heard. But, I think your friend is right, most people here have no idea how hard it is to keep a golf course firm and fast when working with cool season turf on clay soils in an arid region with high ET rates. Throw in a low budget that can't afford an army of hose draggers and I'm not sure it can be done on a consistent basis.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Joe,
"highly esteemed"...huh?
What you need to do is watch the weather this winter. When West Texas get a nice high pressure locked in, jump on a plane from GR to Dallas and take the jump jet to Lubbock. I'll pick you up at the airport and we'll play 36 at The Rawls Course. That should relieve a little cabin fevor!

[A_Clay_Man]

Don- Your analogy is correct about my business but I hope i don't come off as trying to ram it down someone else's throat. I honestly like to discuss these matters and given an honest and thought provoking discussion both parties should come away with a deeper understanding of both spectrums. Part of the subtext of my initial post is that alot of super's are not necessarily avid golfers. Does this hurt them in determining how much watering is too much? Unlike yourself, a very good golfer, aren't all of the individuals who seem to prefer F&F conditions doing so because of the playability aspect? If your not really an experienced player, how can you learn the difference other than reading some forum like this website? Now, I can see a super who isn't a player wanting to use the minimal amount of water to avoid many of the long term issues that result.

[Joe Hancock]

Don,

I hold you (in a non-physical sense) in high esteem.

Why do I have to wait until winter? After your Lubbock report on another thread, I'm ready to go during any high pressure system!

BTW, while you guys and gals were frolicing around in the southwest, I did my best to enjoy golfing with Getka and Kelly in Northern Michigan.....I think you might have enjoyed it!

Joe

[Don_Mahaffey]

Adam,
I hear ya. For me, playing my course is without a doubt the best measure of where I'm at and what I need to attend to. Playability is the bottom line, no question. It's a golf course, not a arboretum.

I don't believe your trying to ram it down anyone's throat. Just keep in mind that supts. get a lot, and I mean a lot, of valuable input about how best to do their jobs. I just encourage you to use a method of communication that doesn't get you lumped into the "smile and nod head but don't hear a word" crowd. The only way I know to do that is to be sure and understand the pressures and limitations the supt. has to deal with.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RT,

Wouldn't that be a consideration in the site selection ?

[RT]

Pat,

It surely would if there were choices among sites with varying soil profiles and the other items alluded to (plus the pesky availability of water and it's inherent quality and quantity[Long-term]).  Usually though the client has found a site and locked themselves into it when the GCA is then called in to design the course.

Also I wouldn't expect to grow typical UK fecues-bents in Missouri where Zoysia meyer is the predominate grass for fairways-roughs-tee surfaces.  Again site specific soils plus overall climatic conditions will determine the "surface" possibilities. Then comes all the things JHancock has stated.

[ForkaB]

Good topic, Adam

A couple of observations from a non-turf head with parimarily anecdotal knowledge, primarily from Scotland:

1.  Getting a course really fast and firm requires lots of knowledge (on how to bring grasses to the verge of death without killing them), lots of guts (to deal with committee members and others who don't like F&F, even at its most deliciious, and luck (Mother Nature).

2.  F&F is a highly ephemeral state.  This year in the UK we had probably 2-3 months of perfect conditions, but this is abnormal.  In most years, most greenkeepers are lucky to get their courses perfectly tuned up for 2-3 weeks of the year.  The rest of the time is suboptimal, but still great!

3.  When the rain comes, F&F goes, faster than you can say supercalafragilisticexpialidocious.  I played one of my courses (Burnstisland) today.  Last time I played it (3 weeks ago) you had to land balls 20-30 yards short on some greens to get close to gthe pin, and some elevated greens were impossible to hold without a perfect golf shot.  Pitchmarks were nowhere to be seen.  Today, balls stopped on the approaches and the ballmark repairer got lots of use.  The course still was in great condition, but the magic of the summer has already gone.

I do not think there is a course in the world that is or even could be consistently fast and firm.  Be thankful for the moments when your course gets that way, enjoy those moments, and give the greenkeeper lots of warm huggies when he manages to achieve this.

[George Pazin]

F&F is a highly ephemeral state.  This year in the UK we had probably 2-3 months of perfect conditions, but this is abnormal.  In most years, most greenkeepers are lucky to get their courses perfectly tuned up for 2-3 weeks of the year.  The rest of the time is suboptimal, but still great!

This is an interesting remark that deserves further investigation. How often does anyone think their home course achieves optimal conditions? How tough is it to achieve this? How much more or less costly is it? How much is a good super subject to mother nature & how quickly can a course bounce back?

I don't have anywhere near the experience of everyone else on this site, but I can count on one hand the number of times I've played any course under what I'd guess is optimal playing conditions.

Don -

You're undoubtedly right that most supers receive input from people that don't know jack. However, I get input almost daily from people outside of my business & every now & then someone comes up with something useful. I've always felt it's best to receive opinions with an open mind, but also considerable reflection. Nothing more dangerous than someone who thinks he knows everything!

[Brad Swanson]

George,
   Good question, how often is your home course, or any familiar course in optimal conditions?  I can honestly say that for one course of significant discussion here, Wild Horse, I can say that I've played there one time each of the last 2 years, and I would have considered it in optimal F&F conditions both times (the round last fall was the best I've seen any course regarding fast and firm conditions, period).  I would say that my regular courses here rarely if ever get that F&F maintenance meld (Riverdale Dunes never does, and its a shame), but if they do, its usually around this time of year.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Paul_Hermsmeyer]

Brad,
I would have to agree with you on Wild Horse's playing conditions.  We play there an average of 5 to 10 times a year and it is always F and F know matter what time of the year it is. In fact the time we played last fall would be considered a little soft and slow for Wild Horse.  Everyone thinks that if you add water and more water you will eleviate all your problems, but in this part of the world the drier you can mantain the turf the fewer the problems. The turf is always heathier with less problems with fungus.

Adam,
As we were playing Pinion it amazed me that they were putting in all the drainage tile in the fairways even on some very steep terrain. Is this necessary? It seems like it would be more cost efficent to back off the water.
Paul

[A_Clay_Man]

Paul- I have virtually given up trying to guess why they do what they do at Pinon Hills. But, as I understand things the cost of water is not an issue. But the cost of a new mower is. Also, since Farmington considers itself a Baseball town, the powers behind the powers freak if it goes a tad tan.

Perhaps someone who really knows, and I stress knows, the real answers can do that.

On 16, for the last year and a half there's been turf damage along the right side of the fairway. Now I've always assumed it was from a leaky pipe. But today we get to the hole and there's a brand new set of french(freedom) drains without any evidence of having fixed a leak. Now, I can assume I was way wrong or ...or .... oh forget it, I won't go there.

[Don_Mahaffey]

George,
I agree that an open mind is a good thing. And I'm not saying supts. shouldn't listen to their clients (golfers). I really don't mind it when a golfer tells me how he'd like the course to play. I don't love having every task related to greenkeeping open to critisism by folks who have little practical knowledge of soils and grasses. I'll disuss the end all day, but I'd perfer the means be left to the professionals.

[TEPaul]

"I was recently approached by a lurker on this site who proceeded to tell me how "you guys" with our firm and fast notions, don't have a clue on what it takes and how to run, maintain or really anything about a golf course."

Adam:

Basically that lurker is a great example--perhaps even a great definition of;

"A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing!"

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom Paul- Are you saying it's the fact that I have little knowledge? or did you mean something else?
 Also, I know I've been using the term f&f, but I do mean "ideal M meld".

[TEPaul]

Adam, in the first sentence of your initial post on this thread you're referring to some lurker and what he said to you, right? If that's so that's who I'm referring to.

[George Pazin]

I'll disuss the end all day, but I'd perfer the means be left to the professionals.

This is a great statement - I hope you don't mind if I steal it from you from time to time.