[John Kavanaugh]

I'm curious what people think as this relates directly to up tees, thick rough and bifurcation.

[David Whitmer]

No, I don't think a birdie putt is a right or a privilege. But I do think if people can't get close to a par 3 green after hitting a good tee ball, or get close to a par 4 green after hitting two quality shots, they may get disenchanted. I can only use my mom as an example. She hits a solid tee shot 130 yards. Until her club installed forward tees, she found herself playing less. She said it was because she got tired of hitting two good shots and not being anywhere near par 4 greens.


I'm less passionate about high rough. It may not be fun to play with high rough, but at least those who can't hit it very far still have the possibility of avoiding it. It's up to them and them alone.

[John Kavanaugh]

David,


I get what you are saying about your delivery vessel. I'm now of the age where I can't reach all the par 4's I play in two and it hurts me to my very core. The good news is that I also realize that I can't reach a properly designed fairway bunker. It's still good.

[Jeff_Brauer]

It appears you are on the front end of what most aging men go through. Eventually, they move up to the senior tees and enjoy golf the way it was meant to be played again, i.e., hitting par 4 greens in 2 with a variety of irons.  Reaching greens and having some birdie putt opportunities is what brought us to golf and kept us in a long time.

A right? Probably not, but a fun idea. 

[John Kavanaugh]

It appears you are on the front end of what most aging men go through. Eventually, they move up to the senior tees and enjoy golf the way it was meant to be played again, i.e., hitting par 4 greens in 2 with a variety of irons.  Reaching greens and having some birdie putt opportunities is what brought us to golf and kept us in a long time.

A right? Probably not, but a fun idea.

Jeff,


Getting old is one of God's greatest gifts. I find myself winning most long par fours that I can't reach because I lay up while my younger/stronger opponents are still looking out in the gunch for their balls. Nothing screams be careful for what you ask for like a set of up tees. Now give me an eagle putt, three or four times a year and I'm in heaven. but dammit, I rarely walk away with a win on those holes. I love being old and look forward to each year to come.

[John Kavanaugh]

Epiphany time: Golf was meant to be played better than those who you are playing against. Period!!!

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Yes, getting old is a gift, and a nice problem to have for a long time.  Or, as my Dad used to say....it beats the alternative.

One of my favorite all time golf lines, uttered to me by both Pete Dye and Jim Colbert's former partner Ron Fogler, was a version of "You look like you're shooting 70, but you shoot 90....I look like I'm shooting 90, but I shot 70.  All due to smart decisions, accuracy over length, and an uncanny short game in both cases.

That said, about ten years ago, at ASGCA I got paired with Rees Jones, on Pinehurst 2, right after his renovations there.  On the first tee, he says we're nuts to play at 6700 yards (or so) and he urged us all to move up to the 6200 yard set so we could enjoy ourselves, and hit the clubs the pros would be hitting in a few months at the Open.  Until then, I just normally went to about 6800 yard tees.  I can still play those, and occasionally still crank it 260, but about half the time, seem to hit the 225 yard fan shot......6000-6300 is a fun yardage for me, and I hit a mix of irons to all greens.

Golf, the way it was meant to be played, driver, mid iron, one or two putts.....at least if you hit the driver okay.  Imagine that!

[Thomas Dai]

There are probably some players, more so perhaps those of the fairer sex or who take the game up late in life who may go through their entire career without achieving a gross birdie.
Atb

[Jeff_Brauer]

Thomas,

No doubt on that.

But, raises an interesting corollary I hadn't quite thought of before.....do golfers who spend lots of money and time to play well believe they have "earned" the right to a birdie putt attempt?  I think they do.

On a related architectural note, I was playing golf with some fellow architects.  One of the architects managed to reach a par 5 green in two shots, and made birdie.  High fives all around, some whooping and hollering, and one happy camper.  In the 19th Hole, he revealed that when he got to the green, he was thrilled that the putt was reasonably flat, giving him a small chance for eagle, and a near certain birdie. 

We all realized that if we saw that reachable par 5 hole as designers working with a greens committee, we would instinctively recommend something to “toughen it up” and “defend par.”   After a moment of silence, what occurred next could only be described as a “lightbulb moment“.
 
Why do architects focus on preventing birdies, when they are exactly what golfers want? 

Or, if form follows function, what function should we be, or are we now, designing for?

[Thomas Dai]

Jeff,


An interesting corollary indeed. An element, may/probably, think they have 'earned' the right but there will be another element, those who play or may be club members for essentially social or exercise rather than for competitive reasons for whom such an event is more of an "oh that's nice" oportunity rather than something they've earnt. Depends on the individuals own competitive spirit I imagine.


There is certainly an argument that the easier the game is the more might be attracted to it or stay involved once they've started and I guess this relates to your reference to a lightbulb moment. Not sure I'd go along with this entirely however, although I do reckon that for beginners/novices/youngsters/oldersters/high hcps this kind of encouragement has its place, as indeed does challenge.


An 80-20 rule scenario maybe?


Atb

[Doug Siebert]

My 82 year old dad finally gave in and moved to the front tees. He started playing them on a few holes that that were a problem for him last year, but last weekend he played all 18 holes from the front for the first time. He still can't reach all the par 4s in two that way, but I think he's enjoying it more not having to worry about making the fairway if he hits a bad drive.

I commented on it on about the 6th hole, noting I hadn't ever seen him playing the front tees on every hole before instead of just picking some. He said "well, I guess I have to finally admit I'm getting old" and I told him "you've earned the right to play from wherever you want, after all the average golfer your age is dead." 

[Ronald Montesano]

An earned privilege.

[Mike_Young]

If you are playing a course made to make people feel they can play better than they really should via less hazards and "gathering" type greens then birdie putts are a right but if you are playing a strategic golf course where the guy who is better and has practiced more and can get to the protected pins then these birdie putts are a privilege.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm still getting better as a golfer, and I find that whenever I make a birdie (usually only once per round) I feel absolutely terrific, and quite proud of myself -- as if I've accomplished something that is both difficult to do and also well worth doing. I can't think of any "right" or "privilege" that makes me feel that way. A birdie is an event - that's all it is, but perhaps that's all there is.

Peter

[Duncan Cheslett]

To have a birdie putt you've got to make the green "in regulation."

The best players in the world only hit 70% of greens in regulation. http://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.103.html


The figure for single handicap amateurs is going to be more like 50% on a good day.  So birdie putts are most definitely not a "right"!

This also illustrates the inconsequence of not being able to reach long par 4s in two shots. If you're going to miss the green anyway, you might as well be 50 yards short! 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Duncan,

Yes, and given even a good player has only 9 chances at birdie in every round, and converts 50% of his putts at 6 foot and many less from longer distances, I can see why Peter and most of us are happy (ecstatic, over the moon, whatever) for one birdie a round.

Then to Mike's point, it seems to me gently rolling greens are enough of a challenge, at least for the clientele I design for, and the clientele that comes pays their bills.

[Ken Moum]

I think this discussion misses the real point about playing up a tee or two.

It's actually about having as many as 30 or 40 shots in a round that have ZERO chance of reaching a putting surface.

There's a reason good players like reachable par fives and drivable par fours... they mean one less shot like that.

Compare that to my wife, who's a decent senior golfer with a mid-teens handicap.

On a typical course with forward tees of ~5500 yards, she will have the equivalent of ten or twelve three-shot par fives. Or like Royal Dornoch's inward nine, which has five par fives....

Golf is more fun when you're standing over the ball thinking there's a chance of getting home.

Birdie putts have only a secondary role... it's the possibility of getting there, whether it's likely or not.

For me, a short-hitting 13 handicap, long courses are boring.

But I do agree with Kavanaugh about big par fours, I can compete with longer hitters there. I'd MUCH rather see 750 yards laid out as 300 plus 450, than375 twice.

At 375 my longer hitting opponents are hitting driver/wedge. While I have a long club most of the time.

K
'

[Matt MacIver]

On an average day I'd like to see the course set up with 6 easy, medium and hard holes, starting with tee boxes and ending with flag positions. Then a few more birdie attempts might be possible, which is, you know, fun.


Tournaments are another matter - but they always have to hard either. Is Saturday's "moving day" on the Tour usually set up slightly easier than Sunday?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()