Rolling Green--- the closer to the hole , the harder it gets.

[mike_malone]

Some complain about putts rolling off the green and approach shots coming back down the hill more than 40 yards.

But the play from the tee for other than par threes has little stress. Getting in position for the proper approach is important though because once you hit to the green you need to come from the proper angle.
It is critical that firm conditions exist to avoid throwing darts into the green.
Once on the green you will be faced with a choice--- if in the wrong area you need to be defensive, if in a good position you can be aggressive. One consequence can be putting off the green.
There may be uphill approach shots that punish aggression .

It is critical that you be able to recover from these mistakes and not incur a penalty.

We softened the front of 13 and 15 to avoid the silly happenstance of a good putt going off the green.

 

[Jeff Bergeron]

It's a very handsome golf course. Do you think Flynn had those steep, closely cropped roll offs behind the greens?

[Tom_Doak]

We softened the front of 13 and 15 to avoid the silly happenstance of a good putt going off the green.

Mike:


How did you soften the front of those greens?  I ask because the front is the hardest spot to fix.  Reducing the slope from the middle of the green to the front, means raising up the front, and making an even tougher transition from there to the fairway.

[Sean_A]

We softened the front of 13 and 15 to avoid the silly happenstance of a good putt going off the green.

Mike:


How did you soften the front of those greens?  I ask because the front is the hardest spot to fix.  Reducing the slope from the middle of the green to the front, means raising up the front, and making an even tougher transition from there to the fairway.

Which is exactly what happened at Grosse Ile.  A few holes have raised fronts creating a situation where now the greens must be flown, but going beyond the hole is treacherous for putting.  I think the bump-in shot is eliminated which inadvertantly makes putting even more difficult for average joes because they often end up past the hole...and these days greens can be seriously fast.  I did notice this also at Rolling Green...its not a characteristic I favour.  To counter this problem I wonder if greens aren't kept as firm as they might be? 


Ciao

[D_Malley]

The video coverage of this event sucks!
why is the final not being shown live from the start?
FOX is currently airing tape of yesterdays matches, while the final match is in progress.


is there any way to live stream the first 18 holes online?

[D_Malley]

Several of the contestants have been visiting my public golf course this week, which is a couple of miles away from RG. When talking with a player and her father, they commented that it was a very good golf course for match play but would be very tough for stroke play. The the penalty for missing a green was so severe.


what do you guys think?

[Stephen Northrup]

The video coverage of this event sucks!
why is the final not being shown live from the start?
FOX is currently airing tape of yesterdays matches, while the final match is in progress.


is there any way to live stream the first 18 holes online?

Streaming on USGA.org at 930 am EDT

[Jim_Coleman]

Tom:  Jim Nagle from Forse Design raised the fronts of 13 and 15.  The members are quite happy, which is saying something.  Maybe he explain the technicalities.

[mike_malone]

While I like the front of both greens I believe we softened the ridge too much on 13. The decline from top to bottom is not as intimidating.
I am not privy to the techniques used but recall talk of the necessity of starting the process well into the green.
As Jim Coleman said the hard to please membership likes the result.
I haven't noticed the problem Sean observed.

Tom,
13 has a steep hill of rough up to the front of the green so the bounce on from a fairway does not apply. 15 doesn't feel different except that a ball that gets just on now stays on.

[mike_malone]

Jeff Bergeron,
Tom Paul calls them "pull-ups". The name of the book about Flynn he coauthored with Wayne Morrison is called "The Nature Faker" so he hoped to make things be or look natural.
When there was a question whether Philmont North was a Flynn I played there and saw several parallel bunkers at the green and chocolate drops which made me doubt the Flynn attribution.

[Ed Brzezowski]

May I ask why Jim N never tackled the front of 8?  I think that's one of the most scary shots and putts on the course. Come up short on 8 and it's a 50 yards pitch shot.

[mike_malone]

They decided to extend the green on 8 to the right instead of changing the front.

[Rory Connaughton]

Mike


  I don't think Jeff Bergeron is referring to the pull ups, I think he is referring to the roll offs (notably behind 17).


  Tom raises a great point with respect to lifting the front of greens.  We have a green with a very severe false front that leaves only
about 60% of the green available to safely putt without fear of the ball rolling off the front.  The great benefit of this false front is that it enables older/shorter hitters to run the ball up the slope from long distance.  A member of our GC wanted to explore lifting the front to get more putting space but doing so while maintaining the run up play would have required significantly more work  . . thank goodness it was not undertaken.


 

[JNagle]

Rory - Your very explanation about the hole at LCC is the why the front of #8 at RG was not raised.  The amount of disturbance to the 15th at LCC would be significant as would the 8th at RG.  #15 at LCC has a more gradual upslope that #8 RG yet we advised against doing anything with your 15th.  Same for the 8th at RG with the exception of capturing more cupping area to the right into a level area.  Our intent when raising the front of the green is to mimic, as close as possible, the existing approach slope.  That means there may be 50 - 75', or more, of area that must be modified beyond the green so as to maintain a very similar slope. 


The 15th and 13th greens are RG have very steep upslopes leading into them.  The option of running a ball onto those greens is near impossible.  The overall average slopes of each green are pretty bad. #13 5.66% avg slope with 3.2% of a 5600 sq ft. green being below 3%.  That's 180 sf of usable area below 3%.  We had to too something to create more cupping area.  The 15th was not a severe as the 13th with the average grade being 5.4% slope and 38% usable area at 3% or below.  Problem with the 15th green was the elevation change and length of the slope from the rear teir to the lower front portion.  There was only one area to cut holes on the lower level and it was very difficult to stop a ball when putting from above to the lower level.  The green was modified by cutting into the base of the tier allowing for some lowering of the rear portion of the lower level, then we raised the front of the green.  By steeping the slope of the tier this allowed for less raising of the front of the green, therefore not creating an even steeper approach.  So instead of raising (don't recall the exact numbers) the front 12" it may have only been raised 6" at the front. 

[mike_malone]

What he said!


Jeff,
At Rolling Green he designed some fairway on the side of greens.
Originally there were trees in back of 17 between the green and 18 tee to pressure approaches to the green. So allowing balls to roll off the back is a modest replacement.
As for 7 he designed fairway on the right side of the green ( NO BUNKER!!!!!!) to allow the running approach to be tested since it is a short five. I want to recover the right fairway but run it 25/30 yards behind the green as a response to modern technology.
The USGA did a great job on Saturday and Sunday trying to make it a real par five.

[Rory Connaughton]

Jim


  The circumstances are definitely not totally identical.  I agree that the 13th and 15th at RG are different in character to 15 at Lancaster.  I should have been more clear.  15 at RG, especially, is more of a plateau than a run up....for those who have not been there, think more difficult to stop a ball than old 12 at MGC or 2 at PV.