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BCowan

Inverness 7th(original)
     I'm picking a hole that I would give anything to have played, only problem was that it was taken away from us a few years before I was born.  It was a 316-320 yard par 4, with the tee box shoved up against the boundary fence.  There was and is a little dinky creek just in front of the tee box, but only in play for a beginner.  There was a great ridge on the left that could be challenged leaving a short shot in.  You can see through one of the photos how close the 17th green is in relation to the old 7th.  However the original 7th is 15-20 feet on top, also very close to the 18th tee.  A good few have said that it was cramped, but it's the kind of jigsaw puzzle routing solution that made Ross so good.  The 7th was considered the Best omitted hole of the 4 that no longer exist.  ''Ted Ray in 1920, took dead aim over a rugged valley all 4 rounds.  Scored 4 birdies, and one of the rounds he drove the green.  It required a hook off the tee and long was jail, the green was slightly elevated.''

   Whats your favorite Cape hole without water?  Or maybe hole you long to play that no longer exists? 





The 17th green sits down in the valley. 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 11:49:17 AM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Thomas Dai

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Ben,
I guess there are a whole bunch of fine or very fine cape holes without water out there but over time trees have been planted or permitted to grow. Chainsaw time!
Atb
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 07:48:53 AM by Thomas Dai »

Jeff_Brauer

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Ben,

Not quite what you wanted, I am sure, but I have done a few good cape holes with sand replacing water.  For lost ball reasons, I often use sand for capes on the right side, reserving water for only the left, where I can.  The 10th at Wild Wing in Myrtle Beach is one of my faves, with sand on the right, then 18 is a cape with water on the left.

Also OT, somewhat, but I learned early on that the angle of these cape holes ought not exceed 30 degrees in most cases.  When working with Killian and Nugent, they did a lot of those, sometimes steeper.  They just didn't think it through that hard until they hooked up with Jim Colbert.  They took him to see a course then under construction, I think its called George Dunne now, a Forest Preserve Course SW of Chicago.  He gets out of the cart, takes a look at the 45 degree angle, water left, bunkers framing behind, and says (in his normal colorful way....) "So, you are asking me to wear out a driver, and then stop it on a dime?" (Note, with new clubs it might be easier for him now....)

On the other side, any angle less than 10 degrees seems more like lateral water than a carry hazard, so 10-30 degrees works best on Cape Holes.

Like Pete Dye, I think a simple nearly straight edge works best.  One, it makes the exact line harder to discern, two it avoids any potential for blind water that you might have if the shoreline randomly zigs and zags, hiding a perhaps critical portion of the water to the golfer deciding where to hit it. 

Years ago, I was displaying at a golf show in Singapore, and the late Robin Nelson dragged one of his associates into my booth.  He points to my rendering, which included a cape hole almost yelling, "See that?"  Then, "Jeff, please tell him why that lake edge is so straight!"  He and I laughed, but when you work in plan, and hire young landscape architects, they cannot seem to resist drawing the curvy lake edge (as taught in school....) and its a good lesson that not everything works on the ground as you think it might in plan, and the airplane view has little to do with quality golf.

Lastly, while I have put them where water or topo suggests, my preference is to locate such holes where they are normally downwind, which better entices players to take the chance.  I have seen too many aim way wide when the wind is in the face, sort of reducing the fun factor of such a hole.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Cliff Hamm

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Connecticut National #3.  Tremendous renovation done by Mark Mungeam, but Tim Gerrish , I believe, had major input.  Hole is 389 from blue tees.  About 200 or bit less to sprinkler on right.




Approach








This hole is the poster child for tree removal.  The entire left side was covered with trees.


http://www.mcgolfdesign.com/projects/renovationorrestoration/put.php
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 11:44:19 AM by Cliff Hamm »

Anthony_Nysse

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#6 at Friars Head.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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How about #13 at Riviera if/when they ever decide to remove the trees down the left side of the fairway?

Jeff Bergeron

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Great call Ben!

Alex Miller

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#7 at Cal Club pops up in my head

Jon Cavalier

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#7 at Cal Club pops up in my head


This is the hole that popped into my head as well.  Terrific golf hole, and a Kyle Phillips original addition to the course:















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Jon Wiggett

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The 16th at Cleckheaton, Bradford, West Yorkshire.

Jay Mickle

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11 at Tobacco Road
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Sean_A

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It is fairly easy to create waterless Capers; instead we focus on pushing tees back instead of horizontally. 

One of the best I know is Rye's 16th, but unless the rough is up there isn't a huge amount of danger.  Perhaps the worse danger is in being too safe out right.
 

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 03:56:05 AM by Sean_A »
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Jeff_Brauer

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It is fairly easy to create waterless Capers; instead we focus on pushing tees back instead of horizontally. 


One of the best I know is Rye's 16th. 


Ciao

Another interesting corollary, but I believe water cape holes are sort of wasted on shorter par 4 holes.  I would be more tempted to challenge water for the angle/distance benefit on a long par 4. If the difference was between a 9 and 7, I would stay clear of it.  If it was recoverable sand, then it might work okay on a shorter 4.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Davis

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I love the C&C Cape at Old Sandwich. #5


That was the first one without water that came to mind.


I'm sure I can think of others if I could get this bloody hard-drive between my ears working.
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Thomas Dai

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Would the 17th at Sandwell Park -  http://www.sandwellparkgolfclub.co.uk/course/hole/17/ - or the 8th at Golspie - http://www.golspiegolfclub.co.uk/hole-8 - count or are they a little lengthy to be considered?


Atb









Jon Wiggett

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Would the 17th at Sandwell Park -  http://www.sandwellparkgolfclub.co.uk/course/hole/17/ - or the 8th at Golspie - http://www.golspiegolfclub.co.uk/hole-8 - count or are they a little lengthy to be considered?


Atb


Thomas,


whilst a very good hole is not the 8th at Golspie just a slight dogleg. I fail to see how you can hit it across the angle. To me a cape requires you to hit over the inside of the angle.


Jon

Thomas Dai

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Would the 17th at Sandwell Park -  http://www.sandwellparkgolfclub.co.uk/course/hole/17/ - or the 8th at Golspie - http://www.golspiegolfclub.co.uk/hole-8 - count or are they a little lengthy to be considered?
Atb
Thomas,
whilst a very good hole is not the 8th at Golspie just a slight dogleg. I fail to see how you can hit it across the angle. To me a cape requires you to hit over the inside of the angle.
Jon


Jon,
Thanks for this. A certain degree, no pun intended, of ambiguity between a dog-leg and a cape does seem to exist and as I wasn't sure where the difference might lie hence two examples in the hope that some clarification might arise.
Fine hole the 8th and then comes the wonderful 9th. I recall a long hitting friend aiming slightly left of the fairway mowing line on the 8th with a high draw and ending up very close to the crossing road. Guess he must have got lucky and had a favourable bounce or two.
atb

Tommy Williamsen

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14 at Ballyhack



Looking back from the green



16 at Ballyhack



Second shot



Looking back from the green
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Would the 17th at Sandwell Park -  http://www.sandwellparkgolfclub.co.uk/course/hole/17/ - or the 8th at Golspie - http://www.golspiegolfclub.co.uk/hole-8 - count or are they a little lengthy to be considered?
Atb
Thomas,
whilst a very good hole is not the 8th at Golspie just a slight dogleg. I fail to see how you can hit it across the angle. To me a cape requires you to hit over the inside of the angle.
Jon


Jon,
Thanks for this. A certain degree, no pun intended, of ambiguity between a dog-leg and a cape does seem to exist and as I wasn't sure where the difference might lie hence two examples in the hope that some clarification might arise.
Fine hole the 8th and then comes the wonderful 9th. I recall a long hitting friend aiming slightly left of the fairway mowing line on the 8th with a high draw and ending up very close to the crossing road. Guess he must have got lucky and had a favourable bounce or two.
atb


Thomas,


to me a cape hole is where you are asked to hit across some sort of danger be that water, deep rough or a ravine to a fairway so angled as to also ask how much of the corner you need to take on. The 8th at does not require more than hitting it over/along the left semi rough which is why I questioned it as a cape hole. The 8th and 9th are wonderful holes as is almost every hole on the course. Indeed, only the 14th is a poor hole IMO.


Jon

Rob Collins

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#7 at Cal Club pops up in my head
Great call. I loved Cal Club & thought this hole was a blast. With the firm / fast conditions, you can land short & roll on. With a helping wind, one can actually have a go at the green. Very risky but not impossible.
Rob Collins

www.kingcollinsgolf.com
@kingcollinsgolf on Twitter
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Sven Nilsen

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9th at Old MacDonald. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Ronald Montesano

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Any hole at Eastward Ho!


You said Cape, right?


The entire golf course is on the cape of cod, so there.
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Jon Wiggett

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Any hole at Eastward Ho!


You said Cape, right?


The entire golf course is on the cape of cod, so there.


'Cape Cod'. Sounds a bit fishy to me.  :D

Ronald Montesano

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As it should! This entire thread, if subjected to scrutiny, would probably reveal that the majority of cited holes are not true "Cape" holes, as defined by the originator. Instead, they are variations on the theme/template. I'm a fishy guy, Jon. No bones about it.
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Blake Conant

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the cape (8th) at Yale
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 06:43:12 PM by Blake Conant »

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