Why can't North Berwick be the greatest course in the world?

[Thomas Dai]

Sean
If I was ever let loose with maintenance equipment there would likely be a bloodbath.
If on the other hand I was elevated to an executive management position then I can fairly say the course would be set out in the manner of a traditional links; there would be no caddies, obviously; the beer would be cold; and you would be made most welcome.
Niall

Nice one!


Some might suggest that the best items of maintenance equipment are sheep and cattle, 18 x electric fences and a walk-behind mower!


Atb

[Jim Nugent]

There is really no place I'd rather play than North Berwick.  Being able to play there in the late evenings with my crew when we were building The Renaissance Club was certainly the best work-related golf we've ever got to play.

Tom, in this case, why don't you give NB a 10 on the Doak scale? 

[Simon Holt]

Sean,


I hear you.  The rough is awful this year but the ball is just about findable in most places.  Left of 7, 8, right of 9 off the tee and left for second shot, way left of 12...all game over.


This year has been an exception at North Berwick due to an unusually wet and warm last 6 weeks or so.  They definitely are taking the fairways in and I don't really care for a few of the poorly positioned new tees that none of us will ever use, that merely add to the bottom line yardage rather than any strategic improvement.


I have zero interest in playing in Medals....not that I ever have.  One poor shot and round over. 


The rough at Muirfield is as bad as ever and I'm not just talking about the deep stuff.  The beauty of foursomes matchplay is walking ahead to have more chance of finding balls, score not mattering, and playing "East Lothian Rules".  Drop laterally in the fairway, one shot penalty, you cant win the hole.


Simon

[Eric Smith]

and playing "East Lothian Rules".  Drop laterally in the fairway, one shot penalty, you cant win the hole.

Simon,


How do you play out of bounds walls when playing "East Lothian Rules" ? Same as a lost ball in gorse, heather, rough, etc? Asking for a friend.

[Mike Hendren]

It's a great course in my opinion, but does have an awkward opener and pedestrian finisher.  I have every reason to love North Berwick's West Links since I shot 78 there and was only 1 over through 11.  It's only one notch above Brora in my book.

Mike   

[John Kavanaugh]

The 18th at NB is hardly pedestrian. Just the strategy alone required if standing on the tee with a match even is amazing. I'd want to be hitting last. Easy birdie, easy X. Not sure if I've ever seen another hole like it.

[Ed Brzezowski]

The 18th at NB is hardly pedestrian. Just the strategy alone required if standing on the tee with a match even is amazing. I'd want to be hitting last. Easy birdie, easy X. Not sure if I've ever seen another hole like it.

Well stated John, it is an underestimated closing hole imho. Many options but depends upon the status of the match. Easy birdie and just as easy to bag a Volvo parked close by.

ed

[Bill_McBride]

The 18th at NB is hardly pedestrian. Just the strategy alone required if standing on the tee with a match even is amazing. I'd want to be hitting last. Easy birdie, easy X. Not sure if I've ever seen another hole like it.

Well stated John, it is an underestimated closing hole imho. Many options but depends upon the status of the match. Easy birdie and just as easy to bag a Volvo parked close by.

ed

The one place you don't want to go with your tee shot is into the hole behind the pro shop.  It wasn't a good place.  Double cross. 

[Rich Goodale]

It seems that there is trouble down at mill.......


http://www.scotsman.com/news/north-berwick-golf-club-in-bid-to-deter-public-course-invasion-1-4194441

[Mike Sweeney]

It seems that there is trouble down at mill.......


http://www.scotsman.com/news/north-berwick-golf-club-in-bid-to-deter-public-course-invasion-1-4194441

"and surfers stripping off in the rough."

I genuinely believe that this is a GREAT quality of a links course. Surfers are the best, and it is a natural combination:

[Tom_Doak]

They definitely are taking the fairways in and I don't really care for a few of the poorly positioned new tees that none of us will ever use, that merely add to the bottom line yardage rather than any strategic improvement.

Simon:


Who's making those decisions, and what do you think is driving them?  Are they listening to people tell them how to be rated higher, that the course's weakness is that it's not tough enough?  That is the worst part of the rankings ... courses being pressured to conform instead of celebrating their differences.

[Sean_A]

Simon


Its good to know I am not going crazy.  I did take some pix of a few fairways, but seem to have lost them. Some of those fairways can't be wider than 25 yards in critical spots and with that rough about....


On the back nine,11 had horrible rough boths sides (quite a narrow fairway), left of 12 was dire...and not that far from the fairway, left of the green on 13 was dire...not far from the green. 


What on earth is going on with #12...are they going to keep adding bunkers until the hole is part of the beach?


Ciao

[Simon Holt]

Tom:


No idea but I think they are forgetting the reason people come to NB.  Authentic, friendly, fun golf.


The club has lots of money and wants to spend.  We have shiny blue signs everywhere, a new drop-off area, new putting green to allow for the first hole being extended by a massive 20 yards.  Why?  Its made the hole marginally harder for the club guy but takes out driving the green for most pros that play once every 10 years.  It was more interesting when guys would have a go at the green.  More bottom line yardage though, so it must be ok.


In other news....the club have finally come to an agreement with the council to protect the 11th green which is <10 yards from falling in to the sea.  That work started yesterday.  I believe they are also removing all the buckthorn down the left of 11 so that will be open dunes lands again, as well as on the dune to the left of 13.


I'm overreacting but my fear is that we get caught in no mans land between what North Berwick was until 5 years ago and Kingsbarns (which is an excellent CCFAD experience).  The club is well intentioned in trying to up the service which is now very good and the facilities which are very good. 


I just worry it loses its charm a little with too much focus on breaking visitor revenue records and not protecting the integrity of the course.  We will never hold a professional event; moreover we don't need to.




Sean:


I don't think they have added anymore bunkers but every time I look down the left the cluster frustrates me.


On a side note Sean, Porthcawl was shut for maintenance so had a pal host me at Lytham on the way back to Edinburgh from down south.  Loved the south coast courses, plus the two on the way down.


Simon


PS

[Ally Mcintosh]

Simon,

If they are removing the buckthorn left of 11 green, what is the management technique being put in place to stop the erosion?

Thanks,
Ally

[Simon Holt]

Hi Ally,


Its the buckthorn all the way down the 11th hole, not just the green.  The green doesn't really have any.


They are re-routing the burn as its undercutting the green due to them re-routing it the wrong way a few years ago.  Apparently the buckthorn is actually destabilising now....I have no idea.  It seems like when a doctor tells you something is good for you then a year or so later its not so I pay little attention.

[George Pazin]

In other words, we talk all the time about how a hole should be played, but strategic design is mostly about how it shouldn't be played, but its still playable.


Ciao

I love this thought.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom:


No idea but I think they are forgetting the reason people come to NB.  Authentic, friendly, fun golf.


The club has lots of money and wants to spend.  We have shiny blue signs everywhere, a new drop-off area, new putting green to allow for the first hole being extended by a massive 20 yards.  Why?  Its made the hole marginally harder for the club guy but takes out driving the green for most pros that play once every 10 years.  It was more interesting when guys would have a go at the green.  More bottom line yardage though, so it must be ok.


In other news....the club have finally come to an agreement with the council to protect the 11th green which is <10 yards from falling in to the sea.  That work started yesterday.  I believe they are also removing all the buckthorn down the left of 11 so that will be open dunes lands again, as well as on the dune to the left of 13.


I'm overreacting but my fear is that we get caught in no mans land between what North Berwick was until 5 years ago and Kingsbarns (which is an excellent CCFAD experience).  The club is well intentioned in trying to up the service which is now very good and the facilities which are very good. 


I just worry it loses its charm a little with too much focus on breaking visitor revenue records and not protecting the integrity of the course.  We will never hold a professional event; moreover we don't need to.




Sean:


I don't think they have added anymore bunkers but every time I look down the left the cluster frustrates me.


On a side note Sean, Porthcawl was shut for maintenance so had a pal host me at Lytham on the way back to Edinburgh from down south.  Loved the south coast courses, plus the two on the way down.


Simon


PS

So instead of the 4 hybrid off the first tee it's now a 3 hybrid?    Yippee.

[Jon Wiggett]

Hi Ally,


Its the buckthorn all the way down the 11th hole, not just the green.  The green doesn't really have any.


They are re-routing the burn as its undercutting the green due to them re-routing it the wrong way a few years ago.  Apparently the buckthorn is actually destabilising now....I have no idea.  It seems like when a doctor tells you something is good for you then a year or so later its not so I pay little attention.

Simon,


the problem with the buckthorn is that it smoother any growth under it's canopy if it becomes dense such as in this case. This in turn leads to the sand eroding as buckthorn's root are not able to hold the it in place. I have no idea as to whether this will lead to the dune becoming unstable though.


Jon

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

hole #1

[David Kelly]

If it is any consolation...I may be the only person on the planet that thinks NB is better than its charming outward appearance.  It makes the top 5 of my Happy 100 and I think it is top 5 in GB&I.

You're not.

[Alex Miller]

If it is any consolation...I may be the only person on the planet that thinks NB is better than its charming outward appearance.  It makes the top 5 of my Happy 100 and I think it is top 5 in GB&I.

You're not.

I like the concept of a Happy 100 - definitely seems like a reasonable choice on both fronts. I played TOC and Muirfield when I visited and found NBW the better experience on my first play.

[Adrian_Stiff]

1. Not long enough
2. Not tough enough
3. The 16th green


North Berwick is great for what it is.

[John Kavanaugh]

1. Not long enough
2. Not tough enough
3. The 16th green


North Berwick is great for what it is.

An odd thing to say about the 16th green considering it is the original Biarritz.

[Adrian_Stiff]

1. Not long enough
2. Not tough enough
3. The 16th green


North Berwick is great for what it is.

An odd thing to say about the 16th green considering it is the original Biarritz.

It's just too goofy, those things become a minus in the real world. You can't play a proper golf shot to those pair of table tops, so whilst it's fun to the GCA crowd and may well be the original Biarritz, it's not great golf which was the original question.

[Ben Stephens]

Here is a layout sketch that I did ages ago for North Berwick as part of my Open 2020 series - I dont think it has been shown on GCA


Controversially I have removed 1 and 18 from the layout and merged existing holes 5 and 6 into one hole which I think makes better use of the quarry.


I theoretically propose three new holes in dunes land south of the existing 9th and 10th greens.