TOUR Stats at Waialae

[Tom_Doak]

I was in Australia for the tournament at Waialae this year so I saw zero of the play on TV ... I guess it was windy enough that the scoring was tougher than in some years.  [Yay wind.]


Anyway, in discussing how the restored Redan 17th hole played -- there were seven double bogeys over the course of the event, ooh -- my eye fell on the stats for the 18th hole, which we will tackle later this month.  It's pretty well known to be a pushover par-5, but can you believe that in 439 total rounds over 4 days, there were only 7 bogeys, and nothing worse than that?


Next year might be very different, if they let us build the green we have in mind ! 

[John Kavanaugh]

What about the poor High Handicapper? Will they ever finish? Do we need more resort holes where the pros make double?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom,


Is there any room there to have 2 greens- one for resort guests and the other for the green you have in mind? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have told this story before, but when playing with other architects,  one of the architects managed to reach a par 5 green in two shots, and made birdie.  High fives all around, some whooping and hollering, and one happy camper.  In the 19^th Hole, he revealed that when he got to the green, he was thrilled that the putt was reasonably flat, giving him a small chance for eagle, and a near certain birdie.  We all realized that if we saw that reachable par 5 hole as designers working with a greens committee, we would instinctively recommend something to “toughen it up” and “defend par.”   After a moment of silence, what occurred next could only be described as a “lightbulb moment“. 

Why would/do architects focus on preventing birdies, when they are exactly what golfers want?

Isn't the course a resort the other 51 weeks a year?  Of course, the same goes for pro golfers on Tour week, as well as TV watchers who like the tournament to be decided in exciting fashion, etc. I am guessing TD might get some resistance to his vision of that green.  Besides, what would Raynor have done?  One project you are talking restoring Raynor, the next implementing Doak? 
Any other architect here would be soundly thrashed for that, wouldn't they?

[John Kavanaugh]

Not only should tour stats be studied before every restoration, they should be on the scorecard. Simply a tour scoring average in the same box as the hole handicap.

[Tom_Doak]

Well for one thing, Waialae is NOT a resort ... it's a private club where they play 50,000 rounds a year.


And yes, I suppose Tour players love a hole where they make hundreds of birdies and 15 eagles vs. 7 bogeys.  I doubt that's what Seth Raynor had in mind originally, though his 18th was in a different location and we can't restore that.  I doubt it's what Mr Jones had in mind when he built the present hole, either.


I just think if the big boys are all hitting irons at the green on a par 5 they ought to have something up there to think about getting on the wrong side of.  I do have a couple of ideas on that based on Raynor's other work, and a green light from the members on my plan, so I'm not here fishing for ideas.


I suppose the players would prefer a pond like Torrey Pines, but that would be neither consistent with Raynor nor as playable for the members.  But God forbid they have to deal with a green that partly pitches away from them!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Possible limited public access if this 2012 article is still correct:


http://www.golfvacationinsider.com/usa/oahu-golf-waialae-7828

[Jeff_Brauer]

If they have 50K rounds, I figure they must have some kind of public access.  That is a good number of rounds, and an nice problem to have, compared to most courses these days.

[Tom_Doak]

I think the Kahala Hotel can get a few people onto the course, and possibly a couple other select hotels in Waikiki.  But this is the principal private club for Honolulu and obviously it's a 365-day golf season.  We tend to do our work in February (so it has a full year to mature prior to the next tournament), and the course is packed with foursomes and even a few fivesomes, from sunup to sundown.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around 50k rounds per year.


How much does a course like Pebble or Torrey Pines or even TOC do per year....which I assume also have packed tee sheets.

[Jim Nugent]

I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around 50k rounds per year.

If the course really stays open 365 days, that's about 46 threesomes daily.  The annual tournament cuts into available play time, and I imagine maintenance does too.  So the average must be a bit higher. 

Just read on the club's website that, "The golf course is open exclusively to its members and their guests." 

Also it says Desmond Muirhead made changes to the course in 1992.  I wonder if Tom or anyone else knows what Desmond did? 

[Joe Zucker]

I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around 50k rounds per year.

If the course really stays open 365 days, that's about 46 threesomes daily.  The annual tournament cuts into available play time, and I imagine maintenance does too.  So the average must be a bit higher. 

Just read on the club's website that, "The golf course is open exclusively to its members and their guests." 

Also it says Desmond Muirhead made changes to the course in 1992.  I wonder if Tom or anyone else knows what Desmond did? 

Tom gives a good bit of history in the podcast he did with the Fried Egg:  http://www.friedegg.co/podcasts/waialae-sony-raynor


There is also this guide with visuals to how the course has changed:  http://www.friedegg.co/golf-courses/waialae-country-club-over-years


I don't recall anything on Muirhead's work, but Tom does talk about the loss of holes to the hotel and some of the changes he has made.  Very cool conversation.

[Tom_Doak]

I don't remember which of the changes were Desmond Muirhead's, but he might have been the one to flatten the Redan. He did not have a lot of time for traditional golf course design.

[Andy Stamm]

I'm trying to get my mind wrapped around 50k rounds per year.


How much does a course like Pebble or Torrey Pines or even TOC do per year....which I assume also have packed tee sheets.

The Old Course gets about 45,000, but it's closed about 50 odd days a year, plus a few more days a year with pretty limited play.


They like to claim that Ala Wai gets like 175,000 rounds a year, so Waialae is down right empty for that side of Oahu!


Waialae is very much like a traditional American club as far as access, it's definitely not like a resort.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've heard some ridiculous claims about play but 175,000 round equals 841 foursomes a day. That's one group every minute.

[Tom_Doak]

I've heard some ridiculous claims about play but 175,000 round equals 841 foursomes a day. That's one group every minute.

You might want to check the batteries in your calculator.


175,000 / 365 days = 479 rounds per day, or 120 foursomes on six-minute tee times.


It's probably exaggerated, but 100,000 rounds is certainly possible at a busy muni with a 12-month season.


The Old Course at St. Andrews was doing close to 70,000 rounds in 1982, according to Walter Woods.  People started teeing off at 4:30 am in the summer.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Business is down at Ala Wai. According to this article 120,000 rounds is the new number of rounds played, down from all time high of 220,000!!!! I think fivesomes and even sixsomes play there regularly. Now considering Top Golf as a revenue enhancer:




https://www.pressreader.com/usa/honolulu-star-advertiser/20171216/281496456637446

[Andy Stamm]

My personal but somewhat informed opinion on both is that those numbers are highly suspect. 100,000 at Ala Wai is at least believable given the weather and demand. But when I lived on Oahu recently, it wasn't wall to wall, so something doesn't add up. Let alone 175,000 and 220,000.


As far as 70,000 rounds on the Old Course in the 80s, I'm not buying that either. The season has expanded significantly here since those days, with golfers flooding the course April to November. In 1974 the ballot was only in August and September and even then only 8-4, competition outwith those months and times not being high enough to require a ballot. So I think that the idea that there was more play in the 80s (let alone nearly 50% more play) than now is fanciful at best. That said today play is from 6:30 and in 10 minute intervals, so there was the capacity for more play, but I don't think there was nearly the demand.


Tom, do you remember how you got a tee time outside of August and September in '82? Was there a ballot in say May? I'm guessing you could just ring up and book a time without much bother.

[Tom_Doak]

Hi Andy:


I've never had my name on the ballot.  In '82 and '83 my few rounds were either at 5:00 am (before work) or in the evening.  You didn't need the ballot so badly when the tee times weren't so restricted.


Remember, in 1982 the green fee on The Old Course was 15 pounds    and they were running as many people out there as they could to pay for all the other courses.  They would not have done that many paid rounds, but I think the locals played the Old Course more in the summer, too.


Mr Woods may have exaggerated to me a bit but let's put it this way - he mowed some of the greens 20 feet bigger in front to spread out the wear - even on the Road Hole!

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've heard some ridiculous claims about play but 175,000 round equals 841 foursomes a day. That's one group every minute.

You might want to check the batteries in your calculator.


175,000 / 365 days = 479 rounds per day, or 120 foursomes on six-minute tee times.


It's probably exaggerated, but 100,000 rounds is certainly possible at a busy muni with a 12-month season.


The Old Course at St. Andrews was doing close to 70,000 rounds in 1982, according to Walter Woods.  People started teeing off at 4:30 am in the summer.

Oops

[mike_beene]

I look forward to something being done to 18. To call it a par 5 now is crazy. At least the other par 5 has double OB. Could you get away with some bunkering of a sever nature though the outside if the pros landing zone that wouldn't affect the regular player. Then anything to get something besides chunked bermuda rough explosions. Short game decisions off mowed bermuda would be a huge improvement (note playoff today). 18 is worse than those pond holes on the tournament front/club back.

[Tom_Doak]

I look forward to something being done to 18. To call it a par 5 now is crazy. At least the other par 5 has double OB. Could you get away with some bunkering of a sever nature though the outside if the pros landing zone that wouldn't affect the regular player. Then anything to get something besides chunked bermuda rough explosions. Short game decisions off mowed bermuda would be a huge improvement (note playoff today). 18 is worse than those pond holes on the tournament front/club back.

The hole is extremely flat and only a few feet above sea level, so the only way to make a deep fairway bunker would be to have a big high bank at the back of it, which would be out of character with the rest of the course.  [We built one on the ninth hole a couple of years ago with a modestly high face, and that's the one Justin Thomas hit 6-iron out of and made his putt for 59.  It was a great shot, and he did flirt with leaving his ball in the sand to do it, so more power to him.] 


And if the players couldn't recover from your bunker, they would just choose not to go near it.  Or, they would drive into it, and criticize the architect for building an unfair bunker, as Mr. Dye used to say.  [He did not think the latter was the best way for them to earn their living.]


My ideas for the hole are based on Mr. Macdonald's affinity for the Long hole at St. Andrews, which he passed on to Seth Raynor.  There is no point in building some sort of Hell bunker because all the pros are going for the green in two nowadays ... but there are lots of things we could do around the green in keeping with that hole.

[mike_beene]

Since Long is my favorite par 5 anywhere hard to argue. It sure looks like a tight property. I assume there isn't a lot of land left. Is the second shot at 18 into the setting sun? Does that affect anything you do with it? I assume not. If the hole was going to be called a par 4 (and they won't to stay at 70), would you approach the project differently?

[Andy Stamm]

What do we think about this handicap system? It's pretty fascinating and certainly spreads out the strokes very well. If you were to adopt a stableford card and therefore would also need a separate match play handicap system, would anyone prefer this to what we now have? When giving 1 shot, the shot is given at Short? Seeing that, I'm not even sure what this system is based on, to be honest. I like that players would to get used to getting/giving shots on the same holes over and over, but remembering where shots occur in a game would certainly be more work.