[John Kavanaugh]

Truth is, those of us who get out a bit would find it easier to bash caddies, supers or even architects under a fake name. The fake name crap is a serious issue. This boring ass, distracting thread would not exist without the fake name allowance.

[Michael Whitaker]

Sven,

There are a lot of things that I think are worth a splurge... and, hiring an occasional caddy is one of those things. Because I don't use a caddy on a regular basis, I feel I am treating myself when I hire a caddy and I hope the experience will be a good one. Most of time it is a good experience, but unfortunately, there are some guys out there with an attitude of self-importance. The Ballyneal guy was like that.

Treating myself to a caddy is normally a fun experience for me... even if the caddy just totes the bag and only communicates when absolutely necessary. If the caddy is personable and attempts to make my day memorable it is a wonderful experience. Fortunately, most of my caddies have been of that type.

[Niall C]

C’mon John, we both know that as with your previous alias, you’re not using you real name as you’re still on the run for molesting sheep. How was your holiday by the way ?
 
Niall

[Thomas Dai]

What I find dreadful is when non-disabled players have the option of using or not using a caddy, which is fine, but those with a disability or a limitation that requires them to use a buggy have to then hire a caddy to drive the buggy. Shame on courses that apply this approach.
Atb

Couldn't agree more.  Both  Bandon and Cabot, I believe, follow this philosophy. It is as if you are monetarily penalized for being disabled.  Will be curious to see if Sand Valley follows in the same vein.

Yeah, walking only resorts, with courses designed to be walked, on terrain that is not necessarily easy to navigate and an agronomy plan that that doesn't fall in line with cart traffic or even with having people drive in the wrong places, are trying to gouge the few guests for which they have provided an avenue of access that falls outside of their mantras.
Perhaps its just the trade off for being on the leading edge of promoting walking golf.  Or perhaps the insurance policy that would have been required to allow guests to drive their own carts or the amount of work necessary beyond the minimal amount of dirt moved at each place would have made the idea cost prohibitive. 
Perhaps the truth is that being disabled does cost money.  Pretty sure medicaid doesn't cover the cost of required golf carts and their drivers, perhaps it should.
Come to think of it, I'm starting to think Bandon and Cabot should provide caddies free of charge for anyone that can walk the courses but couldn't do it if they had to carry or pull their own bags.  We wouldn't want to discriminate against them as well.
We could keep going all day on this, right down to the starters making sure Bob from Omaha with the touch of dyspepsia gets some free wet wipes before he heads out on to the course.  Surely we're discriminating against him by only providing a toilet every 5 holes.

This issue is one that has the potential to go down the Ambulances chasers at dawn route.


However, there are other approaches that can be adopted.


For example, TOC has system where those of proven disability, and in the UK we have a formalised registered disabled category, can use a buggy but the buggy must be driven by a caddy. However, at TOC the buggy is free but the player pays for the caddy. Seems like a more reasonable position.


Atb

[SL_Solow]

I have stayed away because this thread is repetitious of many others over the years and little new is said. As I have said before, for those who want a caddy, take one.  if you don't, that is OK.  If you are visiting a club that requires caddies, respect the wishes of your host and use the caddy.  If the caddy tells you "too much", ask him to limit his role.  None of this is very difficult.  I would rather focus on some benefits that have been alluded to only briefly , mostly by my friend Jack Crisham. 

In the Chicago area, there is a tradition at most private clubs that supports an active caddy program.  Much of this traces itself to the WGA's Chick Evans Scholarship Program.  My club has a small group of older caddies who support themselves on a full or part time basis as caddies.  But the vast majority of our caddies are high school and college students.  They come from a variety of ethnic, racial and socio-economic backgrounds.  They can earn a nice summer income, get exposed to members who can help them in the future and they are introduced to our game thereby helping to create the next generation of golfers.

The reason this is so fresh in my mind is that 25 years ago we created our own scholarship foundation to assist employees and their families obtain higher educations.  The program is not as generous as the Evans program with its large endowment and fund raising apparatus (and we currently have about 10 Evans Scholars at the club) but we have helped many families over the years.  Last night we distributed over 85,000 to 25 recipients, all raised voluntarily from our membership of less than 250 people.  The stories behind many of these young people, mostly caddies are extraordinary.  But in the context of this discussion, the point I wish to make is that caddy programs can be about more than whether any of us feel that our game is improved by taking a caddy.  These programs, at least in our area, can make a major difference in the lives of the caddies, both in terms of short term income and long term opportunities.  In considering the benefits, sometimes we should consider the larger impact and focus less on ourselves.

Sorry for the preaching but I feel pretty strongly about the topic.  If you still come out not wanting to use a caddy, I remain fine with your decision.  Just refrain from being judgmental about those of us who work to keep the programs alive.  There may be more to it than you understand.

[Sven Nilsen]

Thomas: 

Do you even know the cart fee at Bandon?

You're kind of splitting haits.

Sven

[Michael Whitaker]

SL_Solow,


I would love to hire a high school or college kid as a caddy, but that has rarely been an option presented to me. It is always an adult who is caddying for a profession.


I did have a young kid once at The Creek on Long Island. Probably an eighth or ninth grader. He was enthusiastic, energetic and put a smile on my face many times during the round. I loved that experience and would gladly do it again.

[JJShanley]

Apples-to-oranges comparison alert: Given what I earn per hour for my p/t job on campus (a wage I find fair) a minimum of $100 for someone to carry my bag around for 4 hours seems fair enough to me.


I don't play courses that mandate caddies for a reason.  Folk who play them as members or guests don't need my or anyone else's approval to do so.

[Ulrich Mayring]

There are next to no caddies in Germany, so perhaps someone can enlighten me: what is the story behind the gratuity that is more or less expected?

Is it that caddies are paid too little by the clubs, i. e. they can't keep, say, 90% of the regular caddie fee? If yes, doesn't that mean that clubs exploit them? Are they charging artificially low prices for their caddies to make sure that golfers take them up and the club gets its share? And are they trying to shame the customer into making up the difference?

There are a few professions out there, where those mechanisms are in place. Here in Germany we have an unspoken rule that you don't give a tip in a restaurant that is serviced by the owner. Meaning that if the owner's spouse or children do the service, they don't get a tip. Only employed waiters get one. This is more or less branding the gastronomic business as exploitative. Taxi driving is similar. Does caddying belong in this group?

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

Ulrich


Because caddies are basically an American concept as we know it today, the culture of caddies is American driven (at least in the western hemisphere) and tipping is part and parcel of American culture for this type of service industry job.  In Scotland Americans will tip 25-50% for caddies and 20+% for dinner at averagish restaurants; few Scots would dream of doing that in Scotland.  Many Americans don't adjust their tipping habits to fit the culture.  They rarely pay attention to the tax (20% in the UK) on a meal and end up tipping 20% of the entire bill rather than 20% of the food and drink. 


JJ - $25 an hour for a caddy type service is far and away an unstainable wage.  Consequently, caddies are relatively far and few between.  What other leisure activity service job earns $25 an hour?  Usually that sort of money is lowish end coaching type hourly wage for some individual sports and personal trainer type stuff.  In other words, a $100 caddie fee doesn't stack up for the typical guy earning an average salary.


Ciao 

[Kyle Harris]

I have a Doctor's note that requires me to walk and carry my own bag for courses with mandatory carts.

[Craig Sweet]

I fished the Missouri back in June. I'm a good fly fisherman and have been doing it far longer than I've played golf. I have never used a guide until this trip to the Missouri. I had the guide for two days on a river I had never fished before. He rigged up a couple of rods and said this is how you're going to fish. It was not how I planned, or thought, but what the hell, I was paying him for results.  He rowed the boat and had me fish water I would never have fished. I'd see a nice run along the bank with great cover and depth, and think "gee, that looks fishy over there, so why am I fishing down the middle of the river?" 


Long story short I had two days of the most incredible trout fishing I have ever had! The guide had me into fish immediately.  The Missouri is an awesome river and where we fished it is a tailwater fishery, not a freestone river like I am use to fishing in 99% of Montana.  This guide knew what to use, he knew the technique for catching these fish, and, most importantly, he knew where the fish were. All I had to do was execute,  and with more than 50 years of fly fishing experience I could do that!


I talked to several other fisherman at the take out site, both days, and those without guides were not catching many fish.  I noticed other boats on the river and where they were not fishing the water we were fishing. They were fishing that "fishy" looking water along the banks.


The guide cost me $475 each day. He supplied everything...flies...rods...lunch...beverages.  Was it worth it? You bet!  I drove 200 miles each way, stayed two nights, fished a river I had never fished before and absolutely had a ball catching big, fat Missouri River trout!  The guide was a great guy, loads of fun and taught me a lot about fishing the Missouri. The next time I go over I might fish a day on my own without a guide to see if I really did learn anything.  But, for a first time experience, I was greatful for not going all that way only to get skunked and have a bad impression of the 'Mo'....


Too cheap to hire a caddy? No....Just sayin'

[Cliff Hamm]

Sven and Kyle...The Americans with Disabilities Act is one of the great pieces of civil rights legislation and President George  H. W.  Bush's greatest accomplishment.  It is really quite simple in that those with disabilities are not to be discriminated against.  Thus accommodations must be made for access if such accommodations are reasonable.


Your sarcastic comments come across as having disdain for the disabled.  I simply don't understand.

[Kyle Harris]

Sven and Kyle...The Americans with Disabilities Act is one of the great pieces of civil rights legislation and President George  H. W.  Bush's greatest accomplishment.  It is really quite simple in that those with disabilities are not to be discriminated against.  Thus accommodations must be made for access if such accommodations are reasonable.


Your sarcastic comments come across as having disdain for the disabled.  I simply don't understand.

No disdain at all for those with disabilities who need accomodation.

Absolute disdain for those who don't have a disability yet demand accomodation.

Care to figure the ratio of the former to the latter?

Also, I wasn't being sarcastic. I have that note.

[Cliff Hamm]

Whether you have that note or not is irrelevant.  What is the purpose of such note? Your comment simply comes across as sarcasm and frankly I don't understand the intent if it's not.



As far as abuses what is your evidence for those that don't have disabilities and demand accommodations?    In order to get an accommodation you need a vehicle handicapped placard and or doctors note. I would not deny that there are those that abuse the system, but the requirements are more stringent than you might think. Requires a doctor to certify such and often times an x-ray to be given to the state department of motor vehicles. 


 Again, I simply don't understand the purpose of your post?

[John Kavanaugh]

A food critic can't go to McDonald's to prove how much above us he is, a golf critic can carry his own...

[Kyle Harris]

Whether you have that note or not is irrelevant.  What is the purpose of such note? Your comment simply comes across as sarcasm and frankly I don't understand the intent if it's not.



As far as abuses what is your evidence for those that don't have disabilities and demand accommodations?    In order to get an accommodation you need a vehicle handicapped placard and or doctors note. I would not deny that there are those that abuse the system, but the requirements are more stringent than you might think. Requires a doctor to certify such and often times an x-ray to be given to the state department of motor vehicles. 


 Again, I simply don't understand the purpose of your post?

Cliff,

There are any number of operators on here who can anecdotally provide cases where a golfer has used a doctor's note to skirt a well known operating policy without a legitimate reason to do so other than they don't want to ride or be on cart paths only following a rain storm. Somehow, they can still hit a drive 230 yards, though.

Often times the Doctor's note is NOT accompanied by an ADA credential. They are accomodated happily, but at the same time, they are abusing the system set out to provide access for those who actually need the accomodation. It is functionally no different than someone parking in a Handicap Only spot, or someone with a doctor friend that gets the parking tag. However, in the service industry, often times one has no recourse but to accept everything at face value and accomodate.

Acknowledged, it is human nature to attempt to take advantage of the system so my counter to that is to do the same but in an opposite manner.

The intent is simple, walking has more health benefits than riding.

[John Kavanaugh]

Golf will fail because even those inside the industry don't support their working brothers. The last guy to pay is always the first gaming the system for a free ride. Why does anyone pay for anything unless it supports how you get paid. Rater bodater eats a potater.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'd love to drive a Tesla but drive  13 mpg monster truck instead. Gas tax, hell yea!!! If you work in golf pay for golf and take a caddie. It's really that simple. I don't know but I've gleaned that the OP makes his living in the industry.

[Jerry Kluger]

There are professional caddies and there are people who carry golf bags - there is a big difference.  For me a professional caddie who knows the course adds a great deal to my golfing experience. He also has knowledge of how to assist a player which also adds to the experience.  In short, they are professionals.  You have to also remember that in most instances they must get to the course early so that they get out on the course.  There are also days when they don't get out at all.  So yes, they may at times get $25 per hour when they are actually out on the course but even then, their compensation is dependent upon what the player decides to pay them beyond a minimum fee.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Sean,

funny you mentioned the American culture of tipping in service jobs. The one unpleasant experience I ever had was in a restaurant in Los Angeles. The waiter did a horrible job and thus I didn't tip him. The guy completely freaked out and yelled at me that he has a right to be tipped according to state law. I said to him that I understood tips as a reward for exceptional performance and that I thought he didn't do the job properly and whether he wanted me to explain why in detail. He stormed off furiously and said he's going to call the management, which of course never arrived.

Was this guy a jerk? I don't think so. I would guess that he was under severe pressure to make a living and if he receives no tip, then his salary wouldn't suffice. So basically me not giving him a tip meant he actually lost money working for me. His expenses for the last hour were higher than his income.

So this is a broken system, where guys work and can't live off what they make. But is it the customer's responsibility to fix a broken system? Any responsible business would raise prices to a level, where they could pay their employees a sustainable wage. If they can't raise prices, because no one would eat there anymore, then I'm afraid there is no reason for this restaurant to exist.

So if you have an unsustainable business (and caddying may in many places be just that), then please don't lower prices to a point, where customers will stay on, and expect for tips to make up the difference. Do the responsible thing and either fix the quality issues or close.

Ulrich

[Tim Martin]

Sean,

funny you mentioned the American culture of tipping in service jobs. The one unpleasant experience I ever had was in a restaurant in Los Angeles. The waiter did a horrible job and thus I didn't tip him. The guy completely freaked out and yelled at me that he has a right to be tipped according to state law. I said to him that I understood tips as a reward for exceptional performance and that I thought he didn't do the job properly and whether he wanted me to explain why in detail. He stormed off furiously and said he's going to call the management, which of course never arrived.

Was this guy a jerk? I don't think so. I would guess that he was under severe pressure to make a living and if he receives no tip, then his salary wouldn't suffice. So basically me not giving him a tip meant he actually lost money working for me. His expenses for the last hour were higher than his income.

So this is a broken system, where guys work and can't live off what they make. But is it the customer's responsibility to fix a broken system? Any responsible business would raise prices to a level, where they could pay their employees a sustainable wage. If they can't raise prices, because no one would eat there anymore, then I'm afraid there is no reason for this restaurant to exist.

So if you have an unsustainable business (and caddying may in many places be just that), then please don't lower prices to a point, where customers will stay on, and expect for tips to make up the difference. Do the responsible thing and either fix the quality issues or close.

Ulrich

The job he did was so horrendous that you stiffed him completely? If he had done a good job would you have compensated him at the going rate? Somehow I doubt it.

[Mike Sweeney]

I have that note.

Can I get a copy?


This week, I will finish a Housing Navigator course in NY State that I am taking to develop housing for the Developmentally Disabled in NY State. My first client is my almost 19 year old son.


Of the many paradoxes in the DD world, NY State recently closed a Individualized Residential Alternative (IRA) home for 18 adults that were wheelchair bound. 16 of the 18 no longer need a wheelchair in their next less restrictive environments. Basically there was no incentive in the IRA structure to get people out of wheelchairs. Not saying they were abused, but Management was not incentivized properly to advance the adults in their care. Maintenance rather than advancement was the process.

See "Alive Inside" for music therapy for Dementia patients: http://www.aliveinside.us/#trailer

[Ulrich Mayring]

The job he did was so horrendous that you stiffed him completely? If he had done a good job would you have compensated him at the going rate? Somehow I doubt it.

My understanding is that a tip is a voluntary bonus given at the discretion of the customer. This means that there is no "going rate", because there are no objective standards. Each customer has his own, subjective standards and applies them at his discretion. There is, of course, a mathematical average over all customers, but this statistical number has no bearing on any single case - it's just what can be expected over the long run.

For example, attractive girls in telling clothes routinely rake in high tips from desperate men. But surely those cannot be factored into any "going rate". Some will tip according to skin color, but we won't want to factor racists into the "going rate". So there are subjective standards and mine is that the guy is paid a salary for an average performance. Anything above average merits a tip from me.

Ulrich

[Sean_A]

Sean,

funny you mentioned the American culture of tipping in service jobs. The one unpleasant experience I ever had was in a restaurant in Los Angeles. The waiter did a horrible job and thus I didn't tip him. The guy completely freaked out and yelled at me that he has a right to be tipped according to state law. I said to him that I understood tips as a reward for exceptional performance and that I thought he didn't do the job properly and whether he wanted me to explain why in detail. He stormed off furiously and said he's going to call the management, which of course never arrived.

Was this guy a jerk? I don't think so. I would guess that he was under severe pressure to make a living and if he receives no tip, then his salary wouldn't suffice. So basically me not giving him a tip meant he actually lost money working for me. His expenses for the last hour were higher than his income.

So this is a broken system, where guys work and can't live off what they make. But is it the customer's responsibility to fix a broken system? Any responsible business would raise prices to a level, where they could pay their employees a sustainable wage. If they can't raise prices, because no one would eat there anymore, then I'm afraid there is no reason for this restaurant to exist.

So if you have an unsustainable business (and caddying may in many places be just that), then please don't lower prices to a point, where customers will stay on, and expect for tips to make up the difference. Do the responsible thing and either fix the quality issues or close.

Ulrich

Ulrich

You did the exact same thing as Americans abroad, but in reverse because you failed to properly understand the system and the role the customer plays   In the US a guy would have to be pretty bad not to tip at all...and I have done just that, a few times...its tough to tip when one never receives a bill    Usually one sends a message and only tips 8 or 10% and perhaps pass along your concerns to the management.  On the other hand, if a waiter goes ballistic over the situation then you probably did the right thing....and should likely have informed the management. The waiter is no different from anybody else selling a product...the customer is right...so the waiter's job is to properly engage the customer in the hopes of achieving a satisfactory outcome...going ballistic is not likely to achieve a positive outcome.  You must also remember that waiters are caught in the middle between customers, cooks and management...poor service may not be a reflection of their efforts. 

I take your point though.  Why in the hell should the customer be asked to make up the minimum living wage for a waiter?  The US is very weird.  To be honest, most waiters at decent places would say they much prefer the tips to higher hourly pay.  One good table can easily make up the shortfall of a few bucks an hour over a shift.  But if they had more customers willing to buck the culture maybe that attitude would change.  All that said, I generally have good to excellent service in the US and I can say service in restautants has dramatically improved in the UK and Europe.  I actually notice some waiters trying to make eye contact as a discrete mode of communication.  I recall the times when a great many waiters did everything possible not to make eye contact.

Ciao   

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